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DVLA SJPN, Unlicensed keeping of motor vehicle.
Skatesuk
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:40
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Hello everybody. I’m sorry to come cap in hand but I cannot make head not tail of what is happening and need some help please.
The background. I did a straight swap with a dealer on the 31/05/17 a Subaru for a BMW. When I got the vehicle home I applied to tax online with the V5C. The application didn’t go through. I phoned the DVLA and was advised that the dealer had not registered the BMW, the V5 the dealer had was from the owner who had part exchanged. As such there was a months tax unnaccounted for and the application to tax online was rejected. I was advised to fill out a V62 pay £25 and 6 months tax and it would be sorted, which I did a couple of days later.
On the 24/06 I woke up to my car being clamped. I called the clamp company who referred me to the DVLA. Speaking with the DVLA I was told the V62 had not been processed and could take another 2 weeks. They advised to keep the car off the road to prevent it being clamped again. They did confirm that the tax would eventually be back dated to the date I purchased the vehicle. I removed the clamp myself and while still using the vehicle made sure it was parked on private land. A further 5 days later the vehicle was showing as taxed online and another 2 days later the V5 arrived in my name. I did receive another letter from the DVLA that said they could fine me for the untaxed period. I called them again and explained and they asked me to appeal in writing. Which I never did.

Today I have received an SJPN asking me for my plea. I have filled the paperwork in claiming not guilty as I believe that I was taxed from when I sent the V62 and payment, the delay in processing is the fault of the DVLA and this is the reason it is back dated.
My issues are that the SJPN states unlicensed keeping of vehicle on the 24/06 section 29(1) previous licence expired on 30/04/17 annual rate of duty £245 and asks for my plea.
The plea by post section at the top states unlicensed keeping 24/06 as above it also adds at the bottom if found guilty the Agency will apply for costs of at least £85 and the court will order a penalty of £20.42 for the outstanding duty for the 31/05 the day I traded the car. I’m sure I was told on the telephone that they would let me off that day but I currently have no proof. The DVLA say it will take 6 weeks to provide phone records.
I have 2 witness statements one from the enforcement officer who saw the car on the road and another from the DVLA which states I became the registered keeper on the 31/05 and on the 17/07 a request was made for the name and address of the person responsible for the vehicle on the 24/06, A written reply as required has not been received nor has the letter been returned. To date no notification has been received that the vehicle had been disposed of prior to the date of the offence.

I’m at a complete loss as to what I’m being accused of and what I’m responsible for? The DVLA have had my name and address as it was on both forms plus they have written to me. I have never denied owning the car or that it had been disposed of. I have endeavoured to get the car registered to me. The magistrates court is over 200 miles from where I live which has put me off just turning up and getting an explanation. Am I best to plead not guilty, or guilty with mitigation (in person or by post) Any advice would be gratefully received.

This post has been edited by Skatesuk: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 00:21
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post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:40
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peterguk
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:00
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To clarify, starting with the journey home from the dealer, you drove and kept the vehicle on a road without road tax. Yes or no?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:31


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Skatesuk
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:42
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:00) *
From what you say, you kept the vehicle on a road without road tax. Yes or no?


Yes I did. I drove home from the dealer and then sent the V62 and payment a few days later as advised by the DVLA.

This post has been edited by Skatesuk: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 21:56
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peterguk
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:51
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QUOTE (Skatesuk @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:42) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 20:00) *
From what you say, you kept the vehicle on a road without road tax. Yes or no?


Yes I did. I drove home from the dealer and then sent the V62 and payment a few days later as advised by the DVLA.


So guilty of driving and keeping on road untaxed. And i suspect your problem will be that dropping a cheque in post box does not equal a taxed car.


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Skatesuk
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 21:01
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I actually paid at the post office, but yes this is the exact position the DVLA are taking in their letters.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 21:56
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QUOTE (Skatesuk @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 21:01) *
I actually paid at the post office, but yes this is the exact position the DVLA are taking in their letters.

It does seem very vindictive and pedantic of the DVLA, but then who knows what bonuses they are handing out to their staff.
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peterguk
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 22:10
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 21:56) *
QUOTE (Skatesuk @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 21:01) *
I actually paid at the post office, but yes this is the exact position the DVLA are taking in their letters.

It does seem very vindictive and pedantic of the DVLA, but then who knows what bonuses they are handing out to their staff.


I agree. In the old days when you paid at the P.O., you walked out with a tax disc. Job done.

All that's changed is you don't get a tax disc.


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Skatesuk
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 13:45
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So what should I do plea guilty but with mitigation?
A fresh issue I have is that the reference number on my paperwork isn’t recognised by the online system.
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peterguk
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 16:43
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From what you've said you're clearly guilty of using/keeping the car on a road untaxed from when you drove away from garage, to when you handed over cheque for road tax at Post Office with V62.

I'd want to know what has changed within the legislation since tax discs were abandoned.


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StuartBu
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:23
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 16:43) *
From what you've said you're clearly guilty of using/keeping the car on a road untaxed from when you drove away from garage, to when you handed over cheque for road tax at Post Office with V62.

I'd want to know what has changed within the legislation since tax discs were abandoned.

It can be done online using a card... credit or debit ... which is what I did when I bought my present car a couple of years ago from a dealer..... took about five minutes.
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Irksome
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:40
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When I purchased a car at a dealer in February they did the tax for me in the showroom (knarked me that they made me for it on top of the tens of thousands I had just given them!)
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Fredd
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:41
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:23) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 16:43) *
From what you've said you're clearly guilty of using/keeping the car on a road untaxed from when you drove away from garage, to when you handed over cheque for road tax at Post Office with V62.

I'd want to know what has changed within the legislation since tax discs were abandoned.

It can be done online using a card... credit or debit ... which is what I did when I bought my present car a couple of years ago from a dealer..... took about five minutes.

You did that online with a V62, did you? Obviously you read the part about the OP trying to do it with the V5C/2 first.


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Skatesuk
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 09:06
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:23) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 16:43) *
From what you've said you're clearly guilty of using/keeping the car on a road untaxed from when you drove away from garage, to when you handed over cheque for road tax at Post Office with V62.

I'd want to know what has changed within the legislation since tax discs were abandoned.

It can be done online using a card... credit or debit ... which is what I did when I bought my present car a couple of years ago from a dealer..... took about five minutes.

You did that online with a V62, did you? Obviously you read the part about the OP trying to do it with the V5C/2 first.



I couldn’t do anything online with the V5C I was given. The DVLA confirmed this by phone when I called to resolve the issue. They then told me to hold out for the V5 sent by the dealer to be received but after a few days, I think it was 5 to be exact I then went down the V62 route at the post office.
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Skatesuk
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 09:23
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Does it make any difference that I was told on the phone that it would be ok and the tax would be backdated when the paperwork was processed? Any idea what the fine could actually be, as really there isn’t any tax owed on the car as they did finally backdate the payment? (They also took the DD for the car I traded after and this has not been refunded)
I’ve also spoken to the dealer and he is not being pursued for the missing month, I’m going to see him later today.
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StuartBu
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 12:52
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 18:23) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 16:43) *
From what you've said you're clearly guilty of using/keeping the car on a road untaxed from when you drove away from garage, to when you handed over cheque for road tax at Post Office with V62.

I'd want to know what has changed within the legislation since tax discs were abandoned.

It can be done online using a card... credit or debit ... which is what I did when I bought my present car a couple of years ago from a dealer..... took about five minutes.

You did that online with a V62, did you? Obviously you read the part about the OP trying to do it with the V5C/2 first.

I see you have been taking those grumpy pills again...Yes I read what OP said and what he tried to do was same as what I did. The dealer had the previous owners V5c so sitting at his desk we taxed the car before I drove off .If OP was buying the car that day then I dont see why he shouldnt have been able to tax it from the month start prior to that day but not earlier. Driving away without getting it taxed clearly caused a problem.
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Fredd
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:02
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 12:52) *
I see you have been taking those grumpy pills again...Yes I read what OP said and what he tried to do was same as what I did. The dealer had the previous owners V5c so sitting at his desk we taxed the car before I drove off .If OP was buying the car that day then I dont see why he shouldnt have been able to tax it from the month start prior to that day but not earlier.

I get grumpy in cases such as this where people imply that the OP is at fault simply because of some unrelated personal experience. The OP tried to do tax using the V5C/2 and couldn't - so what relevance does the fact that you could, via the dealer, tax a car with a V5C have to do with their situation?


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Skatesuk
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:45
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I tried to tax online when that failed I phoned the DVLA and was told that I only had 2 options. Wait for the V5 to come in my name or go to the post office and file a V62.
In my case the previous owners V5 was revoked due to the time the dealer had the car unregistered and untaxed/SORN. It took the DVLA 4 weeks to register the car to me so that the tax could be applied.
The dealer has just explained to me that the SPJN is for driving without tax. I’ve just got my head around this as I have been linking it to the fact I had paid the tax but now I’m aware it’s a separate issue. I don’t owe any tax but I drove the car before the tax was applied.
Awful play by the DVLA as if I’d know doing the trade would have meant I couldn’t drive for 4 weeks I would have waited 4 weeks before making the swap. But then I would have had to register the car in my name but declare it SORN on the dealers forecourt. When the DVLA told me on the phone to send the paperwork and they would backdate the tax I assumed that the backdated tax would cover me driving the car, otherwise what is the point of backdating the tax? They should have advised the SORN route then I could have tried backing out of the deal. There is no way I could have gone 4 weeks without a car, I would have lost my job for certain.
The dealer told me the fine is £80 is there any way of finding out if this is true as I would happily plead guilty for such a small amount. I’m not prepared to go guilty for an undisclosed amount.
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peterguk
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 14:00
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Never heard of the offence of "paying for road tax but failing to wait for DVLA to apply it".

I ask again:

In the old days when i bought a car i'd go to P.O., fill out V62, hand over a cheque, and walk out with tax disc. P.O. would send all the docs off to DVLA, DVLA would change RK to me, and send new V5.

Process is exactly the same now, except you don't walk out with a tax disc.

Has the legislation changed?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 14:01


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Skatesuk
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 15:04
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 14:00) *
Never heard of the offence of "paying for road tax but failing to wait for DVLA to apply it".

I ask again:

In the old days when i bought a car i'd go to P.O., fill out V62, hand over a cheque, and walk out with tax disc. P.O. would send all the docs off to DVLA, DVLA would change RK to me, and send new V5.

Process is exactly the same now, except you don't walk out with a tax disc.

Has the legislation changed?

I don’t know about the legislation but in my case and I imagine is the case with everyone except you. It takes time for the post office to send the docs to the DVLA and time for the DVLA to process. In my case 4 weeks.
Sadly I can’t put the receipt in the windscreen.
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peterguk
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 15:14
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QUOTE (Skatesuk @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 15:04) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 14:00) *
Never heard of the offence of "paying for road tax but failing to wait for DVLA to apply it".

I ask again:

In the old days when i bought a car i'd go to P.O., fill out V62, hand over a cheque, and walk out with tax disc. P.O. would send all the docs off to DVLA, DVLA would change RK to me, and send new V5.

Process is exactly the same now, except you don't walk out with a tax disc.

Has the legislation changed?

I don’t know about the legislation but in my case and I imagine is the case with everyone except you. It takes time for the post office to send the docs to the DVLA and time for the DVLA to process. In my case 4 weeks.
Sadly I can’t put the receipt in the windscreen.


I'm not suggesting you've done anything wrong - in fact i'm suggesting the opposite.

I'd be challenging DVLA for the legislation supporting their view.


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