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Summons for failure to comply with a no entry sign
Jimbo34
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:21
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NIP Details and Circumstances- Failure to comply with indication given by no entry sign lawfully placed on or near a road, namely Hampstead Road NW1
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Metropolitan Police
Date of the offence: - December 2010
Date of the NIP: - 14 days after offence
Date you received the NIP: - 15 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - As stated above
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons.


I drove onto Hampstead Road from the bottom of Mornington Crescent around midnight against the advice given by a directional sign (white arrow blue background) and towards oncoming traffic coming from Lidlington Place. A police constable was travelling towards me, pulled me over and charged me with failing to comply with a no entry sign that he did not witness me drive through and could not possibly have done so considering that it is placed on the junction between Harrington square and Hampstead Road about 300 metres away from place in which he saw me driving against the flow of traffic. His statement at the time clearly states the point at which he witnessed me (the point at which Lidlington Place and Hampstead road join)

My court appearance is in 2 days, I believe I have a strong case but a few doubts have been gnawing at me (will they be able to charge me with something other than the offence ie dangerous driving?).

Am I on a sound footing with this?


Note: The reason for the lateness of this hearing is due to the fact that the clerk of the court entered my postal Not Guilty plea as Guilty in my absence and I received a 3 point endorsement (TS50 Code) and a £230 bill for court costs and fine. It's taken this long to re organise all of this.


Many thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by Jimbo34: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:27
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post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:21
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The Rookie
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:38
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They can only try you for the offences listed on the summons.

To prove you contravened a no entry he will give his evidence and you'll give yours unless you can cast reasonable doubt on his assertion you passed it (he doesn't have to actually see it happen) then you'll be convicted. You could have any number of possible means for doing this but don't be tempted to lie - as an example a friend escaped this very charge as he picked up a parked car, did a U-turn in a road he didn't know was one way and got stopped, but he genuinely had not passed a no entry and had his friend who'd parked the car as a witness.

Simon


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Logician
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:39
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Are you the registered keeper of the vehicle? If so have you recently acquired the vehicle or changed address? I am asking because on the face of it the NIP appears to be out of time.

The officer probably thought that there was a No Entry sign where you turned the wrong way round the island, but there isn't, at any rate on Streetview. You seem to have a good case.


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Jimbo34
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:42
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 14:38) *
They can only try you for the offences listed on the summons.

To prove you contravened a no entry he will give his evidence and you'll give yours unless you can cast reasonable doubt on his assertion you passed it (he doesn't have to actually see it happen) then you'll be convicted. You could have any number of possible means for doing this but don't be tempted to lie - as an example a friend escaped this very charge as he picked up a parked car, did a U-turn in a road he didn't know was one way and got stopped, but he genuinely had not passed a no entry and had his friend who'd parked the car as a witness.

Simon



Yeah, I most definitely did not pass the sign but alas no witnesses other than myself. I have photographic evidence to prove that there are ways of accessing that road without passing the no entry sign in question (there are 2 ways of doing this), this will be my main defence.
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Glacier2
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:43
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QUOTE
I am asking because on the face of it the NIP appears to be out of time.

QUOTE
A police constable was travelling towards me, pulled me over and charged me with failing to comply with a no entry sign

Verbal NIP given at scene me thinks.
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Logician
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:44
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Yes, agrred.


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Glacier2
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:44
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QUOTE (Jimbo34 @ Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 16:42) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 14:38) *
They can only try you for the offences listed on the summons.

To prove you contravened a no entry he will give his evidence and you'll give yours unless you can cast reasonable doubt on his assertion you passed it (he doesn't have to actually see it happen) then you'll be convicted. You could have any number of possible means for doing this but don't be tempted to lie - as an example a friend escaped this very charge as he picked up a parked car, did a U-turn in a road he didn't know was one way and got stopped, but he genuinely had not passed a no entry and had his friend who'd parked the car as a witness.

Simon



Yeah, I most definitely did not pass the sign but alas no witnesses other than myself. I have photographic evidence to prove that there are ways of accessing that road without passing the no entry sign in question (there are 2 ways of doing this), this will be my main defence.

That should be good enough for reasonable doubt.
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Jimbo34
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:50
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Yeah I feel like I'm on a strong enough footing with this one. Luckily the officer involved didn't charge me with dangerous driving as I would've probably been bang to rights dry.gif

This post has been edited by Jimbo34: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:54
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Logician
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 13:58
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Looking on Streetview if I understand you correctly, you came out of Mornington Crescent, the turning on the right where the cyclist has stopped, turned left, then immediately turned right against the proper flow of traffic, to get on the left of the barrier and go South down Hampstead Road. It may be that the officer saw you do that and assumed there were No Entry signs on the left of the picture here, before the pedestrian crossing. If there are no such signs, you cannot have disobeyed them!


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Jimbo34
post Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 14:01
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 14:58) *
Looking on Streetview if I understand you correctly, you came out of Mornington Crescent, the turning on the right where the cyclist has stopped, turned left, then immediately turned right against the proper flow of traffic, to get on the left of the barrier and go South down Hampstead Road. It may be that the officer saw you do that and assumed there were No Entry signs on the left of the picture here, before the pedestrian crossing. If there are no such signs, you cannot have disobeyed them!



That is exactly what happened. The officer made an assumption that I'd driven almost 300 metres against the flow of traffic after passing the no entry sign placed at Harrington Square. Seemed odd to me at the time as I clearly stated that I came from Mornington Crescent when he asked me huh.gif

This post has been edited by Jimbo34: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 - 14:04
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Jimbo34
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 14:28
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Well the verdict was given against me huh.gif . Seems like the word of an officer even if he is making guesses carries more weight than Joe Blow no matter how compelling the argument for reasonable doubt is. angry.gif

This post has been edited by Jimbo34: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 14:29
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Glacier2
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 14:45
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Appeal it to the crown court. Mags are useless for this sort of thing.
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Jimbo34
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 14:49
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 15:45) *
Appeal it to the crown court. Mags are useless for this sort of thing.



Not sure If I can be bothered appealing it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 14:58
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Your choice, but as you are not guilty and can prove what you claimed happened is possible it should be an easy win in front of someone who knows the law!

Did they give any reasoning, like they didn't believe you went the way you went, didn't believe there were no no entry signs there or what? Did you take some proof (like photo's) of what was possible, did you cross examine the officer?

Simon


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Jimbo34
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 15:31
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 15:58) *
Your choice, but as you are not guilty and can prove what you claimed happened is possible it should be an easy win in front of someone who knows the law!

Did they give any reasoning, like they didn't believe you went the way you went, didn't believe there were no no entry signs there or what? Did you take some proof (like photo's) of what was possible, did you cross examine the officer?

Simon



They gave no reasoning upon sentence but their reasoning can only be that they believe the officer's guess work.


I actually took almost all the evidence that was used. The officer did a poor sketch and I had 2 photographs a printed map of the area. I cross examined him and got him to admit that he did not witness me commit the alleged offence, I showed there was reasonable doubt etc etc etc and they STILL chose to believe him.


Funny thing is that the fine for a not guilty plea was actually less than the one they gave me when they entered my plea as guilty in error previously biggrin.gif
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Aretnap
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 15:38
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QUOTE (Jimbo34 @ Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 16:31) *
I cross examined him and got him to admit that he did not witness me commit the alleged offence... and they STILL chose to believe him.

So what was there to believe? BangHead.gif

Possibly they're just dim and assume that in law going the wrong way up a one way street/carriageway = failing to comply with a no entry sign. From the Streetview link you DID commit the offence of failing to comply with a blue directional arrow sign, but that's a slightly different offence, and one which does not (from memory) carry penalty points.
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henrik777
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 15:47
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http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?d.../2007/3193.html

Sometimes in the lower courts you are up against incredible bias/stupidity.
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Jimbo34
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 15:54
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QUOTE (Aretnap @ Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 16:38) *
QUOTE (Jimbo34 @ Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 16:31) *
I cross examined him and got him to admit that he did not witness me commit the alleged offence... and they STILL chose to believe him.

So what was there to believe? BangHead.gif

Possibly they're just dim and assume that in law going the wrong way up a one way street/carriageway = failing to comply with a no entry sign. From the Streetview link you DID commit the offence of failing to comply with a blue directional arrow sign, but that's a slightly different offence, and one which does not (from memory) carry penalty points.



The officer insisted that the only way I could've got to that point was by committing the offence he charged me with. When I showed him that he was wrong, he carried on insisting that this is what I had done. His solicitor basically said that I was being economical with the truth and that when I stated "Mornington Crescent" on the night when asked "Where did you come from" I had been economical with the truth and had driven all the way around the one way system before going through the sign in question.

That BangHead.gif smiley is indeed apt. I felt like questioning the dim witted Magistrates further after they'd read the verdict but obviously that kind of behaviour just isn't allowed.
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Glacier2
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 16:12
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Hence why you appeal.
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jdh
post Thu, 25 Aug 2011 - 16:13
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Crown Court appeal or the other one (case stated???)?
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