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London One Way Street, Enfield Council PCN
Jimmyf
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 14:24
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Hi All

A member of my family has received a PCN for going the wrong way down a one way street. They have photos & a video so banged to rights. Does anyone have any glimmer of hope? The charge is for £195 (they are saying they sent one in December - never received so increased the charge by 50%, we will argue the increased charge as it was genuinely not received - this "Charge Certificate" is the first we've heard about it.

Many thanks in advance.

Incident happened here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6093118,-0....6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by Jimmyf: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 15:05
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post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 14:24
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 14:33
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post the PCN get and post the video


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Jimmyf
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 15:10
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Here is the PCN, the video is 3.5mb so too big to upload unfortunately. Thank you

Here is the PCN, the video is 3.5mb so too big to upload unfortunately. Thank you
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stamfordman
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 15:23
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Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.

Is the address correct on the charge certificate? Any post problems?

Not getting the PCN means it can be automatically reset at debt recovery stage.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

If the ground is that the Penalty Charge Notice was not received, the Order for Recovery, Charge Certificate and Penalty Charge Notice are cancelled. The Enforcement Authority may then issue a new Penalty Charge Notice;
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Jimmyf
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 15:37
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God I am dumb - sorry - here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23LV-Jel8HM...eature=youtu.be

thanks all.
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Incandescent
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 16:43
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The video shows your family member as bang-to-rights; that is quite some distance to travel the wrong way ! Good job traffic was light. I had to do this once in Rome when I could see the IBIS hotel, but the street to it was one-way and the wrong way for me. So I put on my Italian motorist hat and drove down the street the wrong way. The Italians are much more forgiving than our venal lot.

As SFM as pointed out, there is a process if a PCN is not received, so don't rush and pay the Charge Certificate. You must wait for the Order for Recovery to arrive, then submit a Statutory Declaration that you didn't receive the PCN. The matter then reverts back to that and you can appeal or pay it. There may be a good appeal argument, but we would need a lot more info to work one up.

PS: is the name and address correct on the CC and did it arrive in the normal way by a postman delivering it ?

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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 12:52
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Where did the family member enter the road? We need to know this to determine whether they would have passed a blue sign. The signs show in the video don't count as they wouldn't have been visible to the driver.


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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 14:36
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Wrong contravention it should be 29 failing to comply with a one way restriction. This is important because the one way sign (rectangular) is not a s36 sign so the cited contravention 32 failure to comply with the sign could bot occur


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Jimmyf
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 17:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 12:52) *
Where did the family member enter the road? We need to know this to determine whether they would have passed a blue sign. The signs show in the video don't count as they wouldn't have been visible to the driver.



Sorry for the delay been away. They was parked in a car park - as you exit there is a one way sign in front of you however a lot of vans park down that road - so it may have been covered up.
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Jimmyf
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 18:00
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 14:36) *
Wrong contravention it should be 29 failing to comply with a one way restriction. This is important because the one way sign (rectangular) is not a s36 sign so the cited contravention 32 failure to comply with the sign could bot occur



Interesting so you say it is the wrong contravention? The road goes from a 2 way to a one way. They entered a car park located in the one way bit - going in the correct way and ie going over those one way arrows and then when they left they went back down the one way stretch about 100 yards to where it goes to 2 way again. It is an industrial area so quiet - still not the right thing to do! As they exited the car park there is a one way street which may have been obscured by a lorry however as they drove in they would have seen the one way arrows on the floor? can they still fight this or if the contravention is wrong do they have to discard it?

Photo of car park exit and sign - so the blue audi on the right is the car park they exited.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 18:19
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It's hard to see on video but there may have been a vehicle obscuring the go left sign. Otherwise I'd say no chance.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 20:40
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People can theorise all they want regarding where you entered the road and what sign you might have passed but the only sign in evidence are the rectangular one way signs, and they are not s36 so there cannot be a contravention against them. That is why London councils added the new contravention code 29.

If you want to argue against the contravention cited then you cannot be in contravention of signs you cannot possibly have seen


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Jimmyf
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 01:32
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 20:40) *
People can theorise all they want regarding where you entered the road and what sign you might have passed but the only sign in evidence are the rectangular one way signs, and they are not s36 so there cannot be a contravention against them. That is why London councils added the new contravention code 29.

If you want to argue against the contravention cited then you cannot be in contravention of signs you cannot possibly have seen


So it used to be the rectangle but now it is the circle version so I think that code is correct?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 10:04
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QUOTE (Jimmyf @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 01:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 20:40) *
People can theorise all they want regarding where you entered the road and what sign you might have passed but the only sign in evidence are the rectangular one way signs, and they are not s36 so there cannot be a contravention against them. That is why London councils added the new contravention code 29.

If you want to argue against the contravention cited then you cannot be in contravention of signs you cannot possibly have seen


So it used to be the rectangle but now it is the circle version so I think that code is correct?

You are entitled to your view, what I can tell you is that in the past when code 32 was used for driving the wrong way up a one way street we argued both that you cannot be in contravention of a sign you cannot see, (the rectangular sign can be seen in the video, if you want to create evidence of the circular sign that you are not expected to see from your direction of travel that's your choice) We also argued that the sign in question (the rectangular one) is not s 36 so the contravention cannot be valid. Both these arguments were being accepted by the tribunal so London councils created the new code 29


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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 22:03
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Jimmyf at the end of the day the council has no evidence that the driver passed any blue signs at all. As PMB says, if you want to provide evidence to show the driver is guilty, that's up to you. Personally I wouldn't bother.


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Jimmyf
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 00:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 22:03) *
Jimmyf at the end of the day the council has no evidence that the driver passed any blue signs at all. As PMB says, if you want to provide evidence to show the driver is guilty, that's up to you. Personally I wouldn't bother.



Thanks - he was panicking - I have emailed them to say he knew nothing about this - which is true - no original notice was received in December like they have said. Like you have said I may ask them to provide evidence of him ignoring signs - especially if they weren't visible behind a van or what not, appreciate your feedback thank.
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 09:55
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Is the car registered to you or to him? Really you should have posted a draft on here before sending it, but what's done is done. Regardless, only the registered keeper is entitled to make representations, if that's not you your email will receive a standard response saying that due to GDPR, the council is duty-bound to disregard your email.


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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 12:26
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 09:55) *
Is the car registered to you or to him? Really you should have posted a draft on here before sending it, but what's done is done. Regardless, only the registered keeper is entitled to make representations, if that's not you your email will receive a standard response saying that due to GDPR, the council is duty-bound to disregard your email.

Or just as likely a charge certificate.

If the representations were not done by or on behalf of (with written authority ) the registered keeper then do so now


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Jimmyf
post Mon, 24 Feb 2020 - 15:21
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hi again, sorry was away without my laptop last week.

So the message i wrote was very vague saying this PC notice was received alleging to a Charge Certificate which was never received (100% true) so they have now replied and reduced the penalty to £65.00. Given the footage the only thing we could say is that signage was covered (I am not sure how far they can zoom in on the footage) but I don't think that will wash - letter attached for reference but don't see a way out.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 12:26) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 09:55) *
Is the car registered to you or to him? Really you should have posted a draft on here before sending it, but what's done is done. Regardless, only the registered keeper is entitled to make representations, if that's not you your email will receive a standard response saying that due to GDPR, the council is duty-bound to disregard your email.

Or just as likely a charge certificate.

If the representations were not done by or on behalf of (with written authority ) the registered keeper then do so now



I emailed on his behalf but with no indication of being the named driver or not, I was trying to be as vague as possible - in the past i have had to argue PCN's (people overstaying car park time max's) as part of my job but never believed completely ignoring them is the right thing to do - although previously my job was very easy as they had permission to be there just stupid car park managers not passing on details to the notice issuers.

Many thanks all again.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 24 Feb 2020 - 15:46
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So when they send the order for recovery you tick the box that says PCN/NTO not recieved send it back and the CC will be revoked and the council may then serve a new PCN this will afford you the opportunity to make representations and appeal if needed/wanted

You will also have the opportunity to pay the £65 if that is your choice


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