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Learner Drivers, Three hypothetical questions
Michael Gibson
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46
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Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving?

Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off?
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post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46
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kommando
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:01
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Are these questions with or without dual controls.
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Michael Gibson
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:03
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All without
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jobo
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:14
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QUOTE (Michael Gibson @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46) *
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving? NO

Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? yes

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? dont think so



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jewels2009
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:27
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QUOTE (Michael Gibson @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46) *
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving?

Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off?


1. No./ Yes
Y
2. Yes

3. Yes

IMO





This post has been edited by jewels2009: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:32
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jobo
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:33
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QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:27) *
QUOTE (Michael Gibson @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46) *
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving?

Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off?


1. No./ Yes
Y
2. Yes

3. Yes

IMO if dual control and pro



probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing

This post has been edited by jobo: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:34


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jewels2009
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:44
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QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:33) *
QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:27) *
QUOTE (Michael Gibson @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46) *
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving?

Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off?


1. No./ Yes
Y
2. Yes

3. Yes

IMO if dual control and pro



probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing


But your the adult with the responsibility and means of ignition..
Think drink in charge. ,your six year old no, the supervisor yes, ,. Oh god need a cheap drive home, hi son have a lesson.

This post has been edited by jewels2009: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:46
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sgtdixie
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 18:05
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QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:33) *
QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:27) *
QUOTE (Michael Gibson @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46) *
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving?

Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off?


1. No./ Yes
Y
2. Yes

3. Yes

IMO if dual control and pro



probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing

I would tend to agree re Q3, but a point of law for debate is at what point the driver starts driving. In some offences driving commences as soon as you get behind the wheel on a road.
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glasgow_bhoy
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:22
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Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes. Q3 really depends- how can you supervise someone who is sitting in a seat. My guess is that it would all be circumstantial.

Q1 is a tricky one- as without dual controls, the supervisor can't really have any control of the car.
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jobo
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:24
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QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 18:05) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:33) *
QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:27) *
QUOTE (Michael Gibson @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46) *
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving?

Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off?


1. No./ Yes
Y
2. Yes

3. Yes

IMO if dual control and pro



probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing

I would tend to agree re Q3, but a point of law for debate is at what point the driver starts driving. In some offences driving commences as soon as you get behind the wheel on a road.


ive had this debate at great length on another forum, unfortunate too long ago to remember specifics

however from memory, driving requires either motion in one set of case law or the mean of motion in another ie engine running, hold of steering wheel,

One example was a guy steering a car from outside, whist is rolled downhill( a slight gradient i imagine) was found to be driving as the car was moving independently of his efforts, conversely if he had been pushing it on the level it would not have been driving.
Drunk driving only requires the engine to be running, whilst sat in the drivers seat. to count as driving. no engine DIC,. most RTA offenses are impossible( very difficult) to achieve unless the car is actually moving and insurance doesnt require a driver at all,


however there isnt any definition that allows no engine ,no movement to count as driving


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Pug205GRD
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:49
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:22) *
Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes. Q3 really depends- how can you supervise someone who is sitting in a seat. My guess is that it would all be circumstantial.

Q1 is a tricky one- as without dual controls, the supervisor can't really have any control of the car.


The Supervisor is still in a position to instruct the driver to either do something that they should be doing or instruct them to stop doing something that they are but shouldnt be doing.

Ultimately, anybody supervising a learner can be charged with almost any offence committed by the learner including 'allowing a person to...' type offences.



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glasgow_bhoy
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:55
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QUOTE (Pug205GRD @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:22) *
Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes. Q3 really depends- how can you supervise someone who is sitting in a seat. My guess is that it would all be circumstantial.

Q1 is a tricky one- as without dual controls, the supervisor can't really have any control of the car.


The Supervisor is still in a position to instruct the driver to either do something that they should be doing or instruct them to stop doing something that they are but shouldnt be doing.

Ultimately, anybody supervising a learner can be charged with almost any offence committed by the learner including 'allowing a person to...' type offences.

Whilst that may be so, I do not believe it would be a decsion to taken lightly to charge a supervisor with careless, as we all know telling someone to do something doesn't always work for various reasons, including panic and sheer rage and refusal. Whilst police may charge someone, I think the CPS would be reluctant to go to court. We see all sorts of cases on the forum and this is one I've never seen. Ever.
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sgtdixie
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 20:54
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Use, cause, permit.

An instructor who told a learner to do something is in a position of control so can cause an offence of careless.
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jewels2009
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:08
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I'm sorry, it seem to be getting drawn to semantics of law, not the principals beholding them.

Let's change the scenario of place to an armory range for cadet's. Same scenario of weapon, just more objective.

Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of "Firing without cause on an open range, whilst the cadet is firing?

Can a supervisor be guilty of dereliction of duty being drunk, whilst supervising the cadet whose sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the cadet is sober with the gun loaded in his hands, but the safety on?

How say ye now

This post has been edited by jewels2009: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:09
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southpaw82
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:21
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QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 20:54) *
An instructor who told a learner to do something is in a position of control so can cause an offence of careless.


Aid, abet, counsel or procure, surely? Use, cause, permit doesn't apply to careless. Same sort of thing but different basis.

QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:08) *
I'm sorry, it seem to be getting drawn to semantics of law, not the principals beholding them.

Let's change the scenario of place to an armory range for cadet's. Same scenario of weapon, just more objective.

Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of "Firing without cause on an open range, whilst the cadet is firing?

Can a supervisor be guilty of dereliction of duty being drunk, whilst supervising the cadet whose sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the cadet is sober with the gun loaded in his hands, but the safety on?

How say ye now


Is the supervisor subject to military law? What range standing orders are in place?


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Aretnap
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:49
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:22) *
Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes.

It's an offence for a supervisor to use a mobile phone because the law specifically prohibits him from using a mobile phone (linky). I was under the impression that a drunk supervisor was likely to be guilty of being drunk in charge rather than drink driving - he can quite reasonably be assumed to be in charge of the vehicle, but it would greatly stretch the definition of "driving" to treat him as if he was driving it. And if the law did generally treat him as if he was driving, why would there be a need for separate offences of driving while using a phone and supervising while using a phone?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:54
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Specific offences are created to avoid hoping a court will interpret the offence widely enough to capture them. However, the general inchoate offences can often be used instead.


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jewels2009
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 22:05
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:21) *
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 20:54) *
An instructor who told a learner to do something is in a position of control so can cause an offence of careless.


Aid, abet, counsel or procure, surely? Use, cause, permit doesn't apply to careless. Same sort of thing but different basis.

QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:08) *
I'm sorry, it seem to be getting drawn to semantics of law, not the principals beholding them.

Let's change the scenario of place to an armory range for cadet's. Same scenario of weapon, just more objective.

Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of "Firing without cause on an open range, whilst the cadet is firing?

Can a supervisor be guilty of dereliction of duty being drunk, whilst supervising the cadet whose sober?

Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the cadet is sober with the gun loaded in his hands, but the safety on?

How say ye now


Is the supervisor subject to military law? What range standing orders are in place?



1. Yes both are since one is teaching the other to play on the same field, but Military law no, because it's hypothetical to the public in general.
2. Range standing orders unsure.gif - Sorry but hypothetically lets assume as applied to invited civilians on base.

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southpaw82
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 22:12
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I would say

No.

No but depends on the extent of duty.

Probably not.


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jewels2009
post Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 22:33
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 22:12) *
I would say

No.

No but depends on the extent of duty.

Probably not.



I'm ohmy.gif surprised, but live and learn, pardon the pun. Just for comparison, if military law and bog standard range orders applied(whatever they are ) what would be different if anything with your responses
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