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Paid for Ticket - Parking Charge Notice - Help
3dee
post Fri, 18 Aug 2017 - 14:44
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Hi Guys,

A driver received PCN from Premier Parking Solutions for parking at Tabernacle Street, Truro in July.

I undertand they paid for ticket (for plenty of time) via debit card (so on my bill), and got partner to place on top of dashboard. Returned to find PCN on drivers door screen.

Not happy!

On checking, found ticket had slipped to the windscreen shelf, but was still quite high up and clearly visible through passenger front window - You couldn't miss it!. Took picture to show!

Think what partner may have done as they got out was balance ticket on top of the dashboard because there was quite a few of previous tickets (on holiday) that had slid to the front of the screen and partner didn't want it to slid behind another...oh and partner must have accidentally placed it reading toward her in the passenger seat, because the final resting place of the ticket was the right way up. interesting.... or had the ticket spun as it dropped!

Appealed to PPS with evidence of ticket, payment via Debit Card, and picture.

Standard letter refusing appeal.

What they said was....

"Vehicles must be parked only in designated areas, with a valid ticket clearly on display on the dashboard
of the vehicle. There was not a ticket displayed in this vehicle and I therefore uphold our operatives
decision to issue this parking charge notice.
Production of tickets after the event does not discharge the liability to park in accordance with the
advertised terms and conditions at the time of parking.
Payment for parking is just one of the terms and conditions of parking. For a vehicle to be authorised to
park at this site all the terms and conditions of parking must be adhered to.
For a ticket to be considered displayed all relevant details ie date, expiry time etc., must be visible for
inspection by our attendants.
"

It is clear that the attendant did not look for the ticket. He must have just looked at the front windscreen, but did not look anywhere else...

The ticket WAS on the dashboard (but not unfortunately directly visible through the front screen)

How do they tackle this one. Like others, very angry!

thanks in advance...

This post has been edited by 3dee: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 08:58
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post Fri, 18 Aug 2017 - 14:44
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Dave65
post Fri, 18 Aug 2017 - 15:14
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Edit your post and remove any thing that ID`s the driver, state "the driver"
Why did you not remove previous tickets?
Have they produced any photos themselves of the windscreen?
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3dee
post Fri, 18 Aug 2017 - 15:30
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QUOTE (Dave65 @ Fri, 18 Aug 2017 - 16:14) *
Edit your post and remove any thing that ID`s the driver, state "the driver"
Why did you not remove previous tickets?
Have they produced any photos themselves of the windscreen?


Hi Dave 65.

Thanks for the heads-up, but Not sure driver is IDed in my post, or am I mistaken?

Were on hols, visiting various scenic spots in Cornwall, tickets find their way down between the screen and dash front and not easy to retrieve. Never thought it would cause a problem until now...

They did send a picture of the front screen with 2 of the older tickets visible - yes! - Oh and they had a second picture zoomed into the two old tickets! - I am guessing their way of saying NO VALID TICKET. Shame he did not just walk 3 feet around to the passenger screen as he WOULD have seen the ticket!

They also sent pictures of their board displaying Terms & Conditions..

cheers

3Dee

This post has been edited by 3dee: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 08:59
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Sheffield Dave
post Fri, 18 Aug 2017 - 22:06
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What exactly do the terms and conditions say about displaying a ticket?
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3dee
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 08:41
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Fri, 18 Aug 2017 - 23:06) *
What exactly do the terms and conditions say about displaying a ticket?



Here you go:

Attached Image


Is the driver banged to rights???, as at the bottom in small writing on white background it says about displaying in front windscreen! ...although the BLUE panels tend to overwhelm and is more prominent (seems to be larger writing although that might be an 'hoptical conclusion'!)

There was a time that sticky tickets were issued and you were OK to put them on your side window!!! angry.gif
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 20 Aug 2017 - 00:13
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QUOTE
We were on hols, visiting various scenic spots in Cornwall, tickets find their way down between the screen and dash front and not easy to retrieve. Never thought I would cause a problem until now...

Keep a small blob of Blutack in your glove-box to secure all P&D tickets, Council ones too. Works perfectly.


QUOTE
They did send a picture of the front screen with 2 of the older tickets visible - yes! - Oh and they had a second picture zoomed into the two old tickets! - I am guessing their way of saying NO VALID TICKET. Shame he did not just walk 3 feet around to the passenger screen as he WOULD have seen the ticket!
Typical of this bunch.

QUOTE
Paid for ticket (for plenty of time) via debit card (so on my bill), and got wife to place on top of dashboard. Returned to find PCN on drivers door screen.
You are not bang to rights, remember this lot are a nasty bunch of ex-clampers, and clampers used to (certainly) rock cars to dislodge permits. Who knows how the PDT ticket slipped down this time?

But you paid by card so can prove the very moment of paying, and prove that a payment was made that day (as opposed to using an old ticket).

QUOTE
Appealed to PPS with evidence of ticket, payment via Debit Card, and picture.
Good, that's all you needed to do, now ignore them. Keep the ticket and the debit card statement, a copy of your appeal letter, and just add all the debt demands to the same paper file, for months. Keep it all for 6 years just in case of a later small claim by the nasty gits, and remember to write to tell them if you move house in that time, so they always have your correct address, so you never miss a claim form (secret CCJs are nasty).

Do nothing else.

Come back of you get a small claim, which is basically the same advice as the BMPA give for PPS:

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Premier_Par..._Solutions.html

''Our recommendation for this operator: Ignore all but court papers but keep paperwork.''

On this forum and on MSE, we win something like 99% of defended small claims v this sort of firm, and as you can see from that link, PPS are not known for massive amounts of litigation.
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 20 Aug 2017 - 13:50
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Do exactly as above

Not prominent enough term to bind a driver. It's also an irrelevancy - it's de minimis for sure as a ticket was displayed, could be seen, and was just not in the exact place stipulated. Well, tough on them. The should look a bit more.
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3dee
post Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 08:25
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Thanks for your support guys!

One thing though...the only item not available is a copy of the original appeal submission. What driver did not twig at the time was that they make you use their website for the appeal, and guess what! ..even though you submit your email address for a reply, they DO NOT copy your appeal and send it to you (as most respectable organisations do), nor do they send a copy attached to their subsequent reply - SNEAKY SH!!!!TS.....

This post has been edited by 3dee: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 09:02
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3dee
post Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 08:38
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One more question...
Since they have refused to cancel the ticket internally, does driver follow the IAS appeal route suggested by them or do nothing?
Would not a Judge reasonably expect driver to have done so, if it came to court?

cheers

3Dee

This post has been edited by 3dee: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 09:02
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ostell
post Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 08:55
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The results of an IAS appeal will be rejection. The IAS is run by the same people as the IPC and the lawyers that take people to court. Independent? Are you kidding!

Yoou can tell a judge that you believe that the IAS is not indepenedent.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 10:38
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which, if you did about 01 minutes of reseach, you can find out for sure
they g'tee to reject at least 85% of appeals
Noone is named, and while they claim they are legally trained, they make legal errors a chimp would spot.
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3dee
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 14:39
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Update

Today I receive a 'Reminder' for what has gone up to a £90 charge!

I also note that PPS have the following on their website:

"PPS continue to have success in the County Courts with recent victories in Truro, Bodmin, Plymouth, Torquay, Exeter and Birmingham, following up on unpaid PCNs. Drivers are still going to courts in the belief that PCNs issued on private land are somehow invalid. This is despite the Protection of Freedoms Act cementing in law the legality of the issuing of PCNs on private land and the transferring of the liability to registered keepers if the drivers are not identified. This statute has been further clarified by the supreme courts ruling in Parking Eye v Beavis where additionally the Lords agreed that the charges levied were fair and reasonable."

Further, they seem to be sending the letters to my business address??? bit odd that! Car is not registered at that address!

I tried to find out who owned the land, but all I can find for Tabernacle Street car park in Truro, is that Napier manage it!!! ...so why PPS? ..or are they the same crew?

I was wondering about sending an open letter to them reiterating the facts (that there is unlikely that any loss to them was incurred, as parking was paid), and offering to discuss the matter with them, thus we can be seen to be taking reasonable steps to resolve the matter - (if it went to court).

What do you think?

3Dee
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emanresu
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 14:54
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QUOTE
Drivers are still going to courts in the belief that PCNs issued on private land are somehow invalid.


PPS is still going to courts in the belief that PCNs issued on private land are always valid. They've been to court only 7 times this year which shows the delusional world they live in.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 15:15
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Post #6 applies. Ignore unless you get a letter before action or stamped court claim.

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 15:21


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3dee
post Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 13:46
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QUOTE (3dee @ Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 15:39) *
Further, they seem to be sending the letters to my business address??? bit odd that! Car is not registered at that address!

I tried to find out who owned the land, but all I can find for Tabernacle Street car park in Truro, is that Napier manage it!!! ...so why PPS? ..or are they the same crew?

I was wondering about sending an open letter to them reiterating the facts (that there is unlikely that any loss to them was incurred, as parking was paid), and offering to discuss the matter with them, thus we can be seen to be taking reasonable steps to resolve the matter - (if it went to court).

What do you think?

3Dee


As (bold bit) post above... should I leave this as is, or correct them?
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ostell
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 07:50
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I would be tempted to not inform them. It is another thing to trip them up if they do take it to court.
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3dee
post Sun, 29 Oct 2017 - 14:23
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UPDATE

I received yet another PPS 'reminder' to pay £90 on Oct 9th, so rightly or wrongly I replied via my business email (since they seem to use this to contact me or send letters to my business address:

"I refer to my email on the 28th August, and your subsequent correspondence.

Please CEASE and DESIST

You continue to send demands for the payment of £90, despite the fact that the facts have been made clear to you within a few days of the incident, in that full payment for parking at the site below can be proved to have been made in good faith prior to parking and therefore you have suffered no loss at the time.

You appear to be incurring more unnecessary costs attempting to leverage more revenue from the driver on very tentative grounds.

Any further attempt to obtain moneys this way will be ignored, and should the matter go to court, I will defend vigorously. In addition I will be lodging a counter-claim.

If you wish to discuss this matter on a reasonable basis, please contact me."


Have I done wrong? I thought I would try stopping them pestering me... not much hope of that but I tried... I also invited them to talk to me on a reasonable basis..#

Sure enough, today I see a letter to my business address from DRP (Debt Recovery Plus Ltd.) now demanding £150 ohmy.gif so they continue to wind the costs up.

I note that the letter says 'Reason for Issue: No valid Ticket Or Permit displayed'

Also I note that the last paragraph is referring to the 2015 Supreme Court decision about parking charges? ...and they have a link ....but the link results in the site saying 'not found'!

Tried to upload the document as a JPG but as soon as you select upload, that section seems to disappear and I cant see it?????

I, like so many others, are getting pretty fed up with this harassment!

Surely if someone pays for a Ticket in good faith, and yes, the ticket slips or becomes dislodged (yet still visible), can they honestly demand money for the ticket not being (in their eyes) in a position on the dashboard they dictate?

What do I do next, if anything?

How strong is my case? Yes, I am a little rattled that they are determined to persue, so I need to know the likelihood that they will or will not get away with it in court! especially in the light of the 2015 ruling?

cheers

Keith
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cabbyman
post Sun, 29 Oct 2017 - 19:19
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Parking Eye v Beavis is the Supreme Court decision to which they refer. It's easy enough to rebut in most circumstance.

For what will you be lodging a counter claim? It needs careful thought and understanding before making the threat.

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 - 19:19


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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 30 Oct 2017 - 07:37
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Yawn, DRP are ones to ignore - they have zero powers at all and just make numbers up - as your research on here will have found out.
That letter is just the DRP template.

Come back if you get a letter before action OR a county court claim form.
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3dee
post Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 11:21
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For completeness, please see DRP letter received a week ago.

Any comments?

cheers sad.gif

[attachment=51966:DRP2.pdf]
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