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code 62 Partly on footway
tigerskin
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:40
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I appealed against a code 62 pcn and the appeal was turned down. I've thought about what to do with the NTO and wonder if a wiser mind than mine has a solution. I didn't realise how far over the bay I was due to a large van next to me quite a long way over his bay obscuring the markings. One questio that arose in my mind is can this be classed as on or off street parking in the market place?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5786388,0...3312!8i6656

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post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:40
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:42
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Post the council photos


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tigerskin
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:55
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Sorry I'm not used to this.

Here's the reply I sent:

PCN No.
Reg. No.

Dear sir,

I would like to submit an appeal against this PCN based on the following.

I try to park in a way that does not compromise anyone elses use of the car park but I have a disability so I always drive a car with wide doors to help me get in and out of my car easily [Photo 1]. If the vehicle alongside me is large and/or has parked incorrectly I am at an unfair disadvantage. I have never seen any disabled bays in the car park so clear marking which is a good practice requirement [DfT Traffic Advisory Leaflet 5/95] may be not in place. On the date and time I parked [shortly before the PCN was issued] a large Transit type van was parked’out of bay’ which happens quite often. I therefore had to also park ‘out of bay’ not noticing I had slightly parked on a paving stone. Photo 3 taken when I returrned to my car shows a much smaller van also parked ‘out of bay’ [although to a lesser degree] to where the Transit van was which partly indicates the difficulty I experienced [Photo 2].

The bays toward the High Street end of the market car park have no clear markings unlike those towards the opposite end [Photo 3]. I always park at the High Street end as I usually visit a cafe there. It is a covenient as I cannot manage a long distance in my wheelchair.

Looking online I can see that the car park is said to have 4 disabled bays. I notice that under the tsrgd traffic advisory leaflet [tal-5-95] car parks with up to 200 bays should have 3 or 6% of bays allocated for disabled users whichever is greatest [this should equate to 9.6 or 9-10 bays] If this had been complied with perhaps I could have used a disabled bay and the pcn would not have been issued. Maybe at a future date this could be addressed to assist disabled drivers.

Photo 4. shows the sign above a parking pay machine which says ‘Conditions of use please refer to the main sign. Any such sign should be readable before entrance to the car park to allow a driver to decide, based on them whether they wished to park or not. This sign [photo 5] cannot be read on entrance to the car park due to the size of the writing and I cannot see a copy anywhere else. Anyone like me in a wheelchair is not able to read such a sign at the height it is and cannot thus be expected to comply with the terms and conditions. For the reasons I have given I therefore request this PCN be quashed.
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tigerskin
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 13:08
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Below is the reply to the PCN from the Council [Sorry for delay]

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Earl Purple
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 13:59
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It seems to be a strange layout where there are marked bays and no kerb so the footpath is simply where there are no marked bays.

I therefore question that the code is the correct one for the layout, but it's difficult from your photos to see exactly where you were parked (I guess next to Lloyds Bank and facing The Lamb).

With the absence of a kerb is a code 62 applicable? Seems more to be a case of not parked within the markings of a bay, although that would apply to an off-street car park and I'm not sure this is one, but is more like one given the layout than regular on-street parking.




This post has been edited by Earl Purple: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 14:05
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tigerskin
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 14:44
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I parked at the end bay which as you say is next to Llyods bank and opposite the lamb. At the other end of the car park the bays are painted white lines as you would expect. It's an interesting point you raise about the kerb. I don't really know.
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Earl Purple
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 16:06
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I am not an expert here and others are so one of them will advise, but that seems to be your best grounds of defence. You cannot use disability as grounds at code 62.
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tigerskin
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 22:55
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So you think the fact the number of disabled parking bays being insufficient has no legs on it. As far as I know the Market is known as a street market so are you suggesting the paving should have kerbs for a code 62 to be used?
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cp8759
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 18:54
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Post a link to the location on Google Street View.


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tigerskin
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 22:33
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This is the entrance road to the market: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5793295,0.1...3312!8i6656

This is the place I was parked the very end bay on the nearside of where the Range Rover is: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5786388,0.1...3312!8i6656
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tigerskin
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 22:45
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Here's an even better shot of the red BMW parked where \i was. I'm sure I took a photo of my car if I can find it: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5787874,0.1...5660!8i2830
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cp8759
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 23:32
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I'm not sure the contravention is sustainable.


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tigerskin
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 09:31
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Could you please explain why you believe this?
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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:02
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QUOTE (tigerskin @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 10:31) *
Could you please explain why you believe this?

When you enter the parking area here https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5793295,0.1...3312!8i6656 it is self-evident that you are entering an area where there is a right of way for motor vehicles, as it is quite clearly a parking area which motor vehicles can cross in order to access the parking bays (unless the council think you should deposit your car there with a crane or a helicopter).

This is self-evidently true because the council has felt the need to use no-entry signs to inform motorists that they may not drive past this point: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5786388,0.1...3312!8i6656

While the council will probably argue that the cobbled stones constitute a parking bay (and it may well be a designated parking place under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984), there is no clear delimitation of where the parking area ends and the footway begins. Conversely, there is no delimitation between the area where cars may pass over in order to access the parking bays, and the area which is reserved for the exclusive use of pedestrians.

Furthermore, in other parts of this car park the council has provided clear indications of where parking is prohibited, see the "no parking" yellow markings here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5791189,0.1...3312!8i6656

Also, is this a pay & display setup? It looks like there's a "pay here" sign here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5791189,0.1...3312!8i6656

All in all, I think this looks like a car park and the contravention should have been "Not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space" which is a lower level penalty, code 62 is a high level penalty that is reserved for on-road contraventions. I think the next step would be to get hold of the traffic management order which will confirm whether this is designated as an on-street or off-street parking area.


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tigerskin
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 14:34
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As far as I can see this:

https://www3.havering.gov.uk/Documents/Romf...gement-regs.pdf

is the latest Market Management rules and regulations that say it is on Private land owned by Havering Council although I'm not sure if that is helpful.

This post has been edited by tigerskin: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 14:35
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tigerskin
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 10:37
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I believe the TMO linked below indicates that the Market Place is an off street car park and wonder if someone could confirm this.

https://www3.havering.gov.uk/Documents/Tran...rder%202008.pdf

Also this previous post http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=88826 raises the issue of the No Entry signs in the same car paark and I wonder if any more knowledgable contributors could comment on it please.

This post has been edited by tigerskin: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 10:41
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cp8759
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 12:07
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QUOTE (tigerskin @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 11:37) *
I believe the TMO linked below indicates that the Market Place is an off street car park and wonder if someone could confirm this.

https://www3.havering.gov.uk/Documents/Tran...rder%202008.pdf

The TMO clearly identifies Market Place, Romford, as an off-street parking area (last page of Schedule 1 of the order). As contravention 62 is an on-street contravention, the alleged contravention did not occur, end of.


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tigerskin
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 14:39
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Sorry to trouble you further but the word "superseded" at the top of the TMO concerned me so I searched further and found this later TMO of 2016:

http://www.haveringtraffweb.co.uk/data/sch...%20Articles.pdf.

Page 5 doesn't explicitly state off street parking so could it be a reasonable assumption that as the Market Place is listed separately from the On Street charges and CPZ's it is Off Street or rather NOT on street?

This post has been edited by tigerskin: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 14:41
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cp8759
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 18:02
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QUOTE (tigerskin @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 15:39) *
Sorry to trouble you further but the word "superseded" at the top of the TMO concerned me so I searched further and found this later TMO of 2016:

http://www.haveringtraffweb.co.uk/data/sch...%20Articles.pdf.

Page 5 doesn't explicitly state off street parking so could it be a reasonable assumption that as the Market Place is listed separately from the On Street charges and CPZ's it is Off Street or rather NOT on street?

Get hold of the maps.


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tigerskin
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 21:16
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The map appears to be http://maps.havering.gov.uk/ The excerpt below is from the Council Highways Register: https://www.havering.gov.uk/info/20026/road...aintained_roads

MARKET LINK ADOPTED
MARKET PLACE PART ADOPTED (REFER HIGHWAYS REGISTER)

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