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Wait here when red light shows..
Spenceyspence
post Tue, 25 Feb 2020 - 20:56
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Hi guys, I've got a bit of a general query, i was driving earlier when a temp light hit amber, i stopped slightly after the "wait here when red light shows"

Am i likely to receive a fixed penalty for this? I stopped just after the sign but before the temporary light itself. I also had to wiggle my car a little to allow cars through when the light was red but i did not go past the temp light
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post Tue, 25 Feb 2020 - 20:56
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jdh
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:59
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 11:16) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 08:15) *
So here's a real life scenario I came across last year: temporary light is red, workmen lift the far end of the contraption it was sitting on, attach it to a vehicle and start towing it up the road a bit faster than walking peace. Does the line move with the light (which was showing red throughout)? How fast can a traffic light move before it ceases to be a traffic sign?

Easier to do these days with battery driven, radio controlled lights, so no longer having to drag cables around with the lights. Not sure how long the batteries last, but should also be the end of the scenario I came across one weekend where the police were scratching their heads over a set of non-working roadworks lights where the generator had broken down or run out of fuel, and a couple of days to go before Monday morning when the workers would be back on site.
Most temporary sets I see these days have plenty of signs next to them with various permit numbers and emergency numbers to call in event of a problem, plus there's usually something advertising the Traffic Management company and the contractors working on behalf of whatever utility. That system in itself creates problems, a set near me were left up all weekend as although the work was finished friday and the contractors finished and cleared out, the TM guys didn't turn up until monday lunchtime to remove the lights.
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mike5100
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:01
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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:51) *
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:30) *
Moving to the front of the queue is not an offence, passing the stop line is.

But passing the stop line is exactly what Mike described. See post #6

I don't think you guys are in disagreement. Earl Purple was simply pointing out that if I go beyond the stop sign I do indeed commit an offence.
Just been looking up the rules on filtering which are remarkably sparse. It seems that it is perfectly legal for me to use the oncoming traffic lane to filter past the stationary traffic (providing the oncoming lane is clear). But when I get to the front of the queue, it's possible that the only space in which I could pull back into my own lane is the space in front of the first car. So I have a choice. Either pull in front of the wait-here sign, or obstruct the oncoming traffic when it starts. You might says that a filtering motorcycle must not filter unless he can see a clear space in his own lane into which he can pull if necessary. But that is not stated in any rules that I can see. Nor would filtering be practical if a motorcyclist had to observe such a rule.
Mike
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666
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:26
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:01) *
QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:51) *
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:30) *
Moving to the front of the queue is not an offence, passing the stop line is.

But passing the stop line is exactly what Mike described. See post #6

I don't think you guys are in disagreement. Earl Purple was simply pointing out that if I go beyond the stop sign I do indeed commit an offence.
Just been looking up the rules on filtering which are remarkably sparse. It seems that it is perfectly legal for me to use the oncoming traffic lane to filter past the stationary traffic (providing the oncoming lane is clear). But when I get to the front of the queue, it's possible that the only space in which I could pull back into my own lane is the space in front of the first car. So I have a choice. Either pull in front of the wait-here sign, or obstruct the oncoming traffic when it starts. You might says that a filtering motorcycle must not filter unless he can see a clear space in his own lane into which he can pull if necessary. But that is not stated in any rules that I can see. Nor would filtering be practical if a motorcyclist had to observe such a rule.
Mike

Highway Code, under General rules, techniques and advice for all drivers and riders:

Rule 162 "Before overtaking you should make sure ... there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake."


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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:50
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:01) *
But when I get to the front of the queue, it's possible that the only space in which I could pull back into my own lane is the space in front of the first car. So I have a choice. Either pull in front of the wait-here sign, or obstruct the oncoming traffic when it starts. You might says that a filtering motorcycle must not filter unless he can see a clear space in his own lane into which he can pull if necessary. But that is not stated in any rules that I can see.

If you don't know its safe and legal to filter, yet do so, that's pretty much a nailed on driving without due care and attention, I didn't think people need to be told to NOT do that?


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mickR
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:57
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But not a law

QUOTE (666)
Highway Code, under General rules, techniques and advice for all drivers

Rule 162 "Before overtaking you should make sure ... there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake."



QUOTE (The Rookie)
If you don't know its safe and legal to filter, yet do so, that's pretty much a nailed on driving without due care and attention,


Nailed ? Are you sure?
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mike5100
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:07
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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:26) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:01) *
QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:51) *
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:30) *
Moving to the front of the queue is not an offence, passing the stop line is.

But passing the stop line is exactly what Mike described. See post #6

I don't think you guys are in disagreement. Earl Purple was simply pointing out that if I go beyond the stop sign I do indeed commit an offence.
Just been looking up the rules on filtering which are remarkably sparse. It seems that it is perfectly legal for me to use the oncoming traffic lane to filter past the stationary traffic (providing the oncoming lane is clear). But when I get to the front of the queue, it's possible that the only space in which I could pull back into my own lane is the space in front of the first car. So I have a choice. Either pull in front of the wait-here sign, or obstruct the oncoming traffic when it starts. You might says that a filtering motorcycle must not filter unless he can see a clear space in his own lane into which he can pull if necessary. But that is not stated in any rules that I can see. Nor would filtering be practical if a motorcyclist had to observe such a rule.
Mike

Highway Code, under General rules, techniques and advice for all drivers and riders:

Rule 162 "Before overtaking you should make sure ... there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake."

But as I said, Filtering would not be possible if that rule was applied. It relies often on the good manners of car drivers travelling in both directions moving over or slowing down to allow the motorcyclist to filter and occasionally pull in. In my experience (about 20k motorcycle miles per year although none of them are commuting), car drivers are very accommodating and only the occasional driver who has had a bad day or doesn't understand the law, will deliberately obstruct a filtering motorcyclist.
I would venture that rule 162 is inappropriate for advising (or ruling) on filtering and is obviously written for a car attempting an overtake of a single slower vehicle.
However, this from rule 167 might well be used by the police against me in the situation we are describing (temporary lights at road works):
DO NOT overtake:
.... where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works.
Mike
PS - I can't find any authoritative definition of the difference between filtering and overtaking, but there must be one as by definition a filterer is sometimes overtaking on the left which is not allowed under the normal rules for overtaking.

This post has been edited by mike5100: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:16
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666
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:27
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:07) *
PS - I can't find any authoritative definition of the difference between filtering and overtaking, but there must be one as by definition a filterer is sometimes overtaking on the left which is not allowed under the normal rules for overtaking.

All filtering is overtaking. Only some overtaking is filtering.
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TonyS
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 15:11
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:07) *
But as I said, Filtering would not be possible if that rule was applied.

Sometimes filtering is not possible. I normally commute on a motorcycle so I'm writing from first hand experience. Usually you can pass queuing traffic, sometime you can't.

QUOTE
It relies often on the good manners of car drivers travelling in both directions moving over or slowing down to allow the motorcyclist to filter and occasionally pull in.

I never rely on car drivers getting out of my way. In fact it used to be the case that some would do the opposite, actively move to prevent a motorcycle passing, although that is much less common nowadays.
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mike5100
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 15:49
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QUOTE (TonyS @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 15:11) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:07) *
But as I said, Filtering would not be possible if that rule was applied.

Sometimes filtering is not possible. I normally commute on a motorcycle so I'm writing from first hand experience. Usually you can pass queuing traffic, sometime you can't.

QUOTE
It relies often on the good manners of car drivers travelling in both directions moving over or slowing down to allow the motorcyclist to filter and occasionally pull in.

I never rely on car drivers getting out of my way. In fact it used to be the case that some would do the opposite, actively move to prevent a motorcycle passing, although that is much less common nowadays.

I agree Tony that sometimes filtering isn't possible and sometimes it's possible for a 125cc but not for a Goldwing, but my point is that if rule 162 was to be applied (that there always had to be a gap in front of the next car you were filtering past), filtering would never be possible.
There is no distinction drawn between filtering and overtaking in the Highway code (AFAIK), and I think this is a deficiency. Subjective opinions can be found from various firms of specialist solicitors, and biking quangos and insurers like Bennets. Some of these are common sensical but it's a shame that it would need to be tested.
And yes the obnoxious drivers who attempt to prevent filtering are far fewer these days, but to bring it back to the point of the original post.- the distinction between 'wait here' and the stop light at roadworks could provide the opportunity for one of those few drivers to film a biker waiting beyond the stop sign. One would hope that any police looking at such video would make a judgement based on the legality of filtering and look at whether it was more sensible for the rider to go past the sign or wait alongside the front car.
Mike
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Fredd
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 15:50
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:07) *
PS - I can't find any authoritative definition of the difference between filtering and overtaking, but there must be one as by definition a filterer is sometimes overtaking on the left which is not allowed under the normal rules for overtaking.

There isn't any authoritative definition of filtering because legally there's no such thing - it's just a name motorcyclists have come up with for a form of overtaking. If you filter on the left, other than past a queue of slow-moving or stationary traffic, then you're not doing something that's mysteriously allowed for motorcycles but not for cars, you're just getting away with it because enforcement is so piss poor. Similarly if you "filter" past a queue with nowhere to pull in and obstruct a vehicle coming the other way then you're driving without due care in just the same way as if a car had done it.


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mike5100
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:06
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 15:50) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:07) *
PS - I can't find any authoritative definition of the difference between filtering and overtaking, but there must be one as by definition a filterer is sometimes overtaking on the left which is not allowed under the normal rules for overtaking.

There isn't any authoritative definition of filtering because legally there's no such thing - it's just a name motorcyclists have come up with for a form of overtaking. If you filter on the left, other than past a queue of slow-moving or stationary traffic, then you're not doing something that's mysteriously allowed for motorcycles but not for cars, you're just getting away with it because enforcement is so piss poor. Similarly if you "filter" past a queue with nowhere to pull in and obstruct a vehicle coming the other way then you're driving without due care in just the same way as if a car had done it.

You may be right Fredd, but a search of the Highway Code throws up several mentions of filtering as distinct from overtaking. And it is perfectly legal in the UK to filter between lines of slow moving traffic, so it's not a matter of 'enforcement being so piss poor'. I think however, that your last sentence has merit.
Mike
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Fredd
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:11
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:06) *
And it is perfectly legal in the UK to filter between lines of slow moving traffic, so it's not a matter of 'enforcement being so piss poor'.

Which is why I said "other than past a queue of slow-moving or stationary traffic".


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nigelbb
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 07:32
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:50) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:07) *
PS - I can't find any authoritative definition of the difference between filtering and overtaking, but there must be one as by definition a filterer is sometimes overtaking on the left which is not allowed under the normal rules for overtaking.

There isn't any authoritative definition of filtering because legally there's no such thing - it's just a name motorcyclists have come up with for a form of overtaking pushing in or queue jumping.

Fixed that for you.


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mike5100
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 07:46
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:11) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:06) *
And it is perfectly legal in the UK to filter between lines of slow moving traffic, so it's not a matter of 'enforcement being so piss poor'.

Which is why I said "other than past a queue of slow-moving or stationary traffic".

In that case I don't understand what circumstances of filtering you feel should be more 'enforced' against. If a cyclist or motorcyclist or car driver is doing this when the traffic is moving faster that 25 mph then it's not filtering and is overtaking on the left - which in itself would be perfectly OK as long as the UK adopted the US protocol on this which seems to work fine.
Mike
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Fredd
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 08:50
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 07:46) *
In that case I don't understand what circumstances of filtering you feel should be more 'enforced' against. If a cyclist or motorcyclist or car driver is doing this when the traffic is moving faster that 25 mph then it's not filtering and is overtaking on the left - which in itself would be perfectly OK as long as the UK adopted the US protocol on this which seems to work fine.
Mike

Well for a start you've just plucked that definition of filtering out of thin air, and it shows. If all three lanes on a motorway are doing 25mph then maybe it fits the exemption for passing on the left that you'll find in the Highway Code (although I'd say that's still pretty risky given that other drivers will be focused on vehicles in front of and beside them when moving that quickly). Passing a stream of traffic doing 25mph in a 30mph limit? I don't think you'll find many people who think that would be acceptable.

Filtering is really just a made-up term for passing (aka overtaking) on the left in circumstances where that's permitted for any vehicle. The only way in which it's different for motorcycles is that they're narrower and shorter so there are inherently more circumstances in which they could pass.


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The Slithy Tove
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 08:55
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 07:46) *
which in itself would be perfectly OK as long as the UK adopted the US protocol on this which seems to work fine.

I think you'll find that in many US States, the rule is Keep Right Except to Pass, so overtaking on the right is actually dodgy and could land you in trouble. It's just widely ignored. Drivers in the US get just as frustrated by overtaking lane hoggers as here (only there, they have guns :-).

Filtering, or lane-splitting as the call it in the US, is outlawed in many States, though allowed in CA. Lane-splitting doing 30mph more than the prevailing traffic will inevitably end in an accident.
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mike5100
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 09:16
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 08:50) *
QUOTE (mike5100 @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 07:46) *
In that case I don't understand what circumstances of filtering you feel should be more 'enforced' against. If a cyclist or motorcyclist or car driver is doing this when the traffic is moving faster that 25 mph then it's not filtering and is overtaking on the left - which in itself would be perfectly OK as long as the UK adopted the US protocol on this which seems to work fine.
Mike

Well for a start you've just plucked that definition of filtering out of thin air, and it shows. If all three lanes on a motorway are doing 25mph then maybe it fits the exemption for passing on the left that you'll find in the Highway Code (although I'd say that's still pretty risky given that other drivers will be focused on vehicles in front of and beside them when moving that quickly). Passing a stream of traffic doing 25mph in a 30mph limit? I don't think you'll find many people who think that would be acceptable.

Filtering is really just a made-up term for passing (aka overtaking) on the left in circumstances where that's permitted for any vehicle. The only way in which it's different for motorcycles is that they're narrower and shorter so there are inherently more circumstances in which they could pass.

That's just the point - I haven't defined 'filtering'. But the HC makes several references to it and in almost all cases it's with respect to motorcycles and cycles and NOT cars. There is no limit prescribed for filtering speed but I haven't plucked that figure out of the air. Here's one that reckons it's OK to do 20mph faster than the traffic you are filtering past blink.gif The BMF suggests 15-20mph (traffic speed - not overtaking speed). Bennets insurance suggest up to 50-60mph (traffic speed) is OK. Personally I would be quite happy sitting within the traffic stream if it was moving at 25mph (ie I wouldn't be inclined to filter), but motorcyclists who choose to filter at higher speeds are not necessarily doing anything wrong.
Mike
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southpaw82
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 10:31
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QUOTE (mike5100 @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 09:16) *
motorcyclists who choose to filter at higher speeds are not necessarily doing anything wrong.

Although ultimately, of course, that would be a decision for a court if they were prosecuted. It would be difficult to advise in categorical terms because, as this thread clearly shows, opinions on what is and is not permissible vary.


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bill w
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 13:11
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Think.Norfolk Hugger do some very good driver/rider information sheets.

Here's the one for Motorcycle Filtering.
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