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PCN from council
John Bravo
post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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Hi All,
I hope you are well.
Some time ago I have received a PCN. I have done online representation to it. They have sent a letter asking to provide an invoice of car repair as a proof or accept the fine and pay £65 within 14 days.
After that I have scanned, uploaded and submitted a scanned document via their online system. Used exactly the same PCN number and car reg number to login to online appeal facility.
After 2 weeks I have received a Notice To Owner instead asking to pay £130, so no Notice of Rejection or Acceptance, so far.
What should I do now. I can only do a formal representation at the moment. I assume that the previous online representation was kind of informal.

I have these options on the list:
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I have sold the vehicle before that date
- I had brought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other

I was going to go for Other, but not sure how they treat Other in comparison to variant F - procedural impropriety.
Please advise.
Thank you


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post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:04) *
I think I understand now where is this going, among these letters I can see one letter dated 18th of October - a formal Notice of Rejection.
where they ask to pay £130 or appeal to ETA where they also provide verification code 8xxxxx to londontribunals.org.uk

I have never received this letter! This bad admin is on purpose!
So they can screw me up with their missing letters,
Before I have challenged online this bloody PCN twice with no single email response from them or their system, but I can read these rejections just now!
This is ridiculous.


John.

Do you remember when you joined the forum, with about 1500 quids worth of dart charge penalties. I do, getting information from you was like pulling hens teeth, but when we finally got it all we were able to reduce this IIRC to about 70 quid.

Give the information asked for, its only so we can help


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John Bravo
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:46
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Understood

1. evidence list
2. missing letter from 18/10/2017
3. pre-NTO challenge
4. post-NTO challenge
5. their statement to tribunal



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:04) *
I think I understand now where is this going, among these letters I can see one letter dated 18th of October - a formal Notice of Rejection.
where they ask to pay £130 or appeal to ETA where they also provide verification code 8xxxxx to londontribunals.org.uk

I have never received this letter! This bad admin is on purpose!
So they can screw me up with their missing letters,
Before I have challenged online this bloody PCN twice with no single email response from them or their system, but I can read these rejections just now!
This is ridiculous.


John.

Do you remember when you joined the forum, with about 1500 quids worth of dart charge penalties. I do, getting information from you was like pulling hens teeth, but when we finally got it all we were able to reduce this IIRC to about 70 quid.

Give the information asked for, its only so we can help


PASTMYBEST I think you are talking about some other John :-) It is a quite common name.


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:03
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:46) *
Understood

1. evidence list
2. missing letter from 18/10/2017
3. pre-NTO challenge
4. post-NTO challenge
5. their statement to tribunal



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:04) *
I think I understand now where is this going, among these letters I can see one letter dated 18th of October - a formal Notice of Rejection.
where they ask to pay £130 or appeal to ETA where they also provide verification code 8xxxxx to londontribunals.org.uk

I have never received this letter! This bad admin is on purpose!
So they can screw me up with their missing letters,
Before I have challenged online this bloody PCN twice with no single email response from them or their system, but I can read these rejections just now!
This is ridiculous.


John.

Do you remember when you joined the forum, with about 1500 quids worth of dart charge penalties. I do, getting information from you was like pulling hens teeth, but when we finally got it all we were able to reduce this IIRC to about 70 quid.

Give the information asked for, its only so we can help


PASTMYBEST I think you are talking about some other John :-) It is a quite common name.


Right john just mixed up the amounts with another guy

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=103032


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Neil B
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 00:16
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:04) *
I can see one letter dated 18th of October - a formal Notice of Rejection.
where they ask to pay £130 or appeal to ETA
I have never received this letter!

Yes we know that but, as has been said, stop getting out of your pram and concentrate on what you are
supposed to be doing.

It was always going to be either -
- they didn't receive your reps, or
- you didn't receive the rejection.

All that has happened is that we now know which one.

And they've referred the matter to LT, which is correct in law*.

So, as I said, phone LT to find out the current position -
- has a hearing been scheduled?
- have they written to you?
- when can you make your own submissions to Tribunal?

---
* @ members. Interesting that Council have not followed the LT instruction circular for such
cases and re-sent NoR for OP's consideration? Just the demand for payment.

Instead they open their summary statement with an inference that the Witness Statement was
untrue: For me, it smacks of trying to sway the adjudicator before the facts of the alleged
contravention are even discussed (and I believe these can influence adjudicators, from
personal experience).


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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lashes1984
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 01:37
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 00:16) *
@ members. Interesting that Council have not followed the LT instruction circular for such
cases and re-sent NoR for OP's consideration? Just the demand for payment.

Instead they open their summary statement with an inference that the Witness Statement was
untrue: For me, it smacks of trying to sway the adjudicator before the facts of the alleged
contravention are even discussed (and I believe these can influence adjudicators, from
personal experience).


It’s interesting you say this as this is exactly what Enfield did to me. I had to attend a personal N244 hearing following which my OOT was granted. Enfield took a further 6 weeks to refer to LT. In their summary they’ve asked the Adjudicator to consider whether the “correct ground had been claimed on the WS”. It took LT nearly 3 months to schedule a hearing and that was only after I sent in my evidence.
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John Bravo
post Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 13:33
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Good day Gentlemen

I have just got it in my letterbox.





What do you think?


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lashes1984
post Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 14:59
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As I said in post #125 I was in a similar situation. Before the Adjudicator wrote to me, as soon as I received the Council’s evidence pack, I submitted my statement and evidence (that I didn’t receive a NOR) to the Adjudicator, and only after this was an appeal hearing scheduled.

Appeal was allowed as the Council couldn’t evidence that a NOR was sent out as alleged. Case Reference: 217052923A.

During my appeal the Adjudicator (at length) explained the guidance issued to Councils about not referring immediately but offering an opportunity to pay, which I can see you received a letter to that effect.

The Adjudicators explanation was that many people claim they haven’t received a NOR and want to then appeal on the basis of procedural impropriety in that the NOR was not served within the prescribed times, and the Adjudicator felt that was an abuse of process.

Wait for others to respond but I would write to London Tribunals provide a copy of my formal reps and explain that you didn’t receive a NOR and that the first time (if true) you became aware of this document was when you received the Council’s evidence pack.

In my own case the Ticket History confirmed that a NOR wasn’t sent out. Similarly you will need to convince the Adjudicator that you didn’t receive the NOR.
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John Bravo
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 10:16
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@lashes1984
and this is what I have said in the letter, I have not received NOR and I have realized while inspecting the evidence pack.

My impression is that the council is doing this on purpose, because at the time NOR letter was the most crucial piece of communication out of 3 other letters they sent and this one gone missing.
When I have received the letter in November I assumed that they have not acknowledged my representation (option 1 - No representation were made), but their claim is (option4 - We issued a Notice of Rejection of Adjudicator's Recommendation)


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hcandersen
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 11:16
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Dear ETA,
RE PCN ****, London Borough of Tower Hamlets and your direction letter dated *****

I refer to the above in which you have asked me to supply the adjudicator with a copy of my formal representations in order to 'substantiate my witness statement'. I am somewhat surprised at this given that the authority have submitted in evidence a copy of their NOR in this case which in para. 1 acknowledges receipt of these representations. It therefore follows that their existence is not at issue.

I shall try to locate my original, but as the authority are required to produce my representations in their evidence then you should have a copy to hand.

Yours,


Or have I missed something?

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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 11:37
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@hca

I wouldn't tempt fate, have a look at any recent day's decisions from ETA--- Direction Made--Statutory Declaration\Witness Statement. They are really going at this issue. The OP needs to submit that evidence or they will rule against him.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 12:07
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We cannot generalise about this.

There is no issue that reps were submitted in time, therefore somehow the adj has been misinformed.
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lashes1984
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 15:24
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The local authority have produced the OP’s reps and NOR as part of their evidence pack, so there’s no dispute that reps were made and in the time. The issue is that the OP is claiming that they did not receive them.

As I said before, the Adjudicator at my recent appeal explained that there are many who claim to not have received the NOR and then appeal on the basis of PI, ie NOR not served within prescribed time periods. The Adjudicator felt this was an abuse of process, especially when the contravention has clearly occurred.

Whilst the advice on this forum is not to step outside of prescribed procedure, the Adjudicator disagreed and felt that motorists should also make an effort not to delay matters. For example, the OP could have contacted the local authority on receipt of the CC and explained that they had made reps but not received an NOR.

Notwithstanding, in the OP’s case the NOR was asking for the full amount of £130.

If the OP had received the NOR, what would be their next step? Pay or appeal?

If I was the OP I would send a copy of their reps as requested and if they had intended to appeal on receipt of the NOR, explain to the Adjudicator that they did not receive the NOR, but had they received it they would’ve appealed and state the reasons for the appeal.

Others may disagree to this course of action, but in my own experience London Tribunals only scheduled a hearing after I provided a statement and evidence in response to the local authority’s evidence pack.

Otherwise the Adjudicator may issue a direction to pay, especially as there was no discount offered.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 15:33
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The letter is clear: submit your reps.

You have the reps ( in the evidence pack).

Submit them.

Simples.

Nothing to do with other cases or others' experiences: your directions require you to submit a copy of your reps.

Do it ASP and let's start moving this forward.
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lashes1984
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 15:36
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Deadline was today....OP have you submitted as requested?
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John Bravo
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 21:47
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QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 15:36) *
Deadline was today....OP have you submitted as requested?

Yes


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John Bravo
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 14:15
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Hi Gentlemen
This is today's response from the Tribunal.


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hcandersen
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 15:12
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So we now have a straightforward appeal (if one sets aside that the thread is 100+ posts long and that review might take longer than normal!)
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 16:50
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 16:12) *
So we now have a straightforward appeal (if one sets aside that the thread is 100+ posts long and that review might take longer than normal!)


John you can help here. place in one post.

The PCN + photos

Your challenge+ rejection

The NTO

Your repsresentations


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John Bravo
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 21:53
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Please let me know if I have missed anything.
Thank you


I think I have hit the limit and I cannot post more images.


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cp8759
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 22:48
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You can post further images on an external site like flickr or imgur.com
The appeal seems straightforward enough, the kerb is obviously there for bin collection purposes and the adjudication posted by PMB should do the trick.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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