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PCN for driving in bus lane but sign says pedestrian zone
Bacardi
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:27
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The wife has had a pcn come through today. It says contravention code 34 being in a bus lane. I e looked on google street view and there is no markings on the floor saying bus lane, there is a sign saying pedestrian zone with the red circle with car and bike in it. It also states except for buses and permit holders.

Whilst I agree she was driving in a pedestrian zone where she shouldn’t, I don’t think the pcn is correct as nothing states it’s a bus lane

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This post has been edited by Bacardi: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:36
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post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:27
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stamfordman
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:30
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They use the standard code for a bus lane for bus gates, which this is it seems. It is confusing but is probably correct.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:34
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Post the PCN and a GSV we need to see the whole area in context


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Bacardi
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:41
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I thought I had posted the pcn not sure how to get the location of gsv off my iphone
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stamfordman
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:46
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Use a pic site such as Flickr or Imgur for pics.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:46
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QUOTE (Bacardi @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:41) *
I thought I had posted the pcn not sure how to get the location of gsv off my iphone



Thought that might be the place. have a read of this

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2017/430.html

Ask questions so you understand before you make any representation to the council


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DancingDad
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:52
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9581661,-...3312!8i6656
May be wrong end.

Do buses actually go down there or is this another of Nottingham's "phantom" bus lanes ?

Ah...the same phantom bus lane...thanks PMB

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:53
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Bacardi
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:13
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:52) *
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9581661,-...3312!8i6656
May be wrong end.

Do buses actually go down there or is this another of Nottingham's "phantom" bus lanes ?

Ah...the same phantom bus lane...thanks PMB


That’s the right place thanks
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Bacardi
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:29
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Thank you PMB

So basically I can appeal because the signage does not comply, and has been proves so by that case?
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DancingDad
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:43
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QUOTE (Bacardi @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:29) *
Thank you PMB

So basically I can appeal because the signage does not comply, and has been proves so by that case?


At the moment seems to be that way.
Depends on whether NCC have changed signs at all though it doesn't jump out from the PCN that they have.
Or if they have changed the TRO in any significant way ?

But to me this is unchanged from the High Court case and as that sets precedent, NCC must explain why the situation is different now to then if they believe it is.

Be warned, NCC are not known for rolling over so this is likely to end up with adjudicator with full penalty at risk.
But unless NCC can explain, they will likely lose.
It is not enough for them to say that they disagree with earlier decisions, once HC in play, they cannot ignore that.
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Bacardi
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:53
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How would I find out if the TRO has changed since then
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 19:45
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This one is important:-

http://davidmarq.com/uploaderv6_1/files/7/...n%201885249.pdf

The definitive Shakespeare Street thread is here:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...05251&st=20

Plus:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-39223830

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 19:52
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Incandescent
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:55
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So they are still enforcing despite a High Court judge ruling that it is illegal. Looks like a clear case of malfeasance to me.
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:52
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@ Incandescent

They changed some of the signs and had a big temporary electronic contraption at the side of the road IIRC.

We must determine that the pedestrian zone issue still applies even though the photo in Post 1 suggests it does.

The GSV is no use since it dates from 2016:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Shakesp...33;4d-1.1522512

Mick
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DancingDad
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 00:16
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https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ngham/NG258.pdf

Seems to be the latest TRO in the TPT library and is the one mentioned in the High Court and earlier decisions.

With any challenge, specific questions must be asked such as why NCC feel they can ignore High Court case (ref) or what changes they have made to overcome the court's decision.
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Bacardi
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 05:57
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Is there a template that I can use as reply for my representation. I’m not very good at this sort of stuff, I don’t want to let them get away with it. I am also going to contact my local mp regarding them still sending fines when the signs have not changed
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 11:50
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QUOTE (Bacardi @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 05:57) *
Is there a template that I can use as reply for my representation. I’m not very good at this sort of stuff, I don’t want to let them get away with it. I am also going to contact my local mp regarding them still sending fines when the signs have not changed


OP---- you are local and we need to see photos of the signs in place on both sides of the road and if possible any advance warning signs.

According to TrafficWeb the Traffic Order noted by DD above is still extant:-

http://www.nottinghamtraffweb.co.uk/main.html

You are dealing with a Council where you have to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are in error. You can only do this by reference to the signs IMO.

Forget about the MP until your case is settled.

Once we see your photos we will draft an appeal for you but be prepared to go to adjudication.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 12:44
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That is the point that I keep coming back to.
The Sheriff and his men have not changed since the times of Robin Hood.
They are quite happy to extract all they can from the common man, often in places where signs are iffy (Goldsmith Tram Gate cough)
But are not stupid and went to High Court to argue the case here, losing.
They know they lost and also know that any case that gets to adjudication will not only lose but quite possibly see a costs order due to that HC judgement.

So cynical that I may be about the Sheriff, I cannot see that they would still be trying it on unless they have changed something that they believe renders the judgement mute.
But at the moment cannot see what.
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Bacardi
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 15:21
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https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/A2h4u0 🌅
https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/7Ji139 🌅

I uploaded the new sign up to Flickr but not sure how to get them to display, they seem to ha e removed the text about pedestrian zone however the red circle with car and bike is still there meaning (I believe) no motor vehicles I.e pedestratian zone. The signs previous just suggest it is a dead end nothing about a bus lane
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 15:37
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QUOTE (Bacardi @ Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 15:21) *
https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/A2h4u0 🌅
https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/7Ji139 🌅

I uploaded the new sign up to Flickr but not sure how to get them to display, they seem to ha e removed the text about pedestrian zone however the red circle with car and bike is still there meaning (I believe) no motor vehicles I.e pedestratian zone. The signs previous just suggest it is a dead end nothing about a bus lane


It does change things as that sign is authorised for use for a bus gate/bus only st.

Ask the council for the current TMO, if it has not changed, the statement of reasons might invalidate it (para 45 and 46 of the JR)


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