PCN for driving in bus lane but sign says pedestrian zone |
PCN for driving in bus lane but sign says pedestrian zone |
Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:27
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 5 Jul 2014 Member No.: 71,678 |
The wife has had a pcn come through today. It says contravention code 34 being in a bus lane. I e looked on google street view and there is no markings on the floor saying bus lane, there is a sign saying pedestrian zone with the red circle with car and bike in it. It also states except for buses and permit holders.
Whilst I agree she was driving in a pedestrian zone where she shouldn’t, I don’t think the pcn is correct as nothing states it’s a bus lane This post has been edited by Bacardi: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:36 |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:27
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:30
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
They use the standard code for a bus lane for bus gates, which this is it seems. It is confusing but is probably correct.
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:34
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Post the PCN and a GSV we need to see the whole area in context
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:41
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 5 Jul 2014 Member No.: 71,678 |
I thought I had posted the pcn not sure how to get the location of gsv off my iphone
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:46
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Use a pic site such as Flickr or Imgur for pics.
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:46
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I thought I had posted the pcn not sure how to get the location of gsv off my iphone Thought that might be the place. have a read of this http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2017/430.html Ask questions so you understand before you make any representation to the council -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:52
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9581661,-...3312!8i6656
May be wrong end. Do buses actually go down there or is this another of Nottingham's "phantom" bus lanes ? Ah...the same phantom bus lane...thanks PMB This post has been edited by DancingDad: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:53 |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:13
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 5 Jul 2014 Member No.: 71,678 |
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9581661,-...3312!8i6656 May be wrong end. Do buses actually go down there or is this another of Nottingham's "phantom" bus lanes ? Ah...the same phantom bus lane...thanks PMB That’s the right place thanks |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:29
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 5 Jul 2014 Member No.: 71,678 |
Thank you PMB
So basically I can appeal because the signage does not comply, and has been proves so by that case? |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:43
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Thank you PMB So basically I can appeal because the signage does not comply, and has been proves so by that case? At the moment seems to be that way. Depends on whether NCC have changed signs at all though it doesn't jump out from the PCN that they have. Or if they have changed the TRO in any significant way ? But to me this is unchanged from the High Court case and as that sets precedent, NCC must explain why the situation is different now to then if they believe it is. Be warned, NCC are not known for rolling over so this is likely to end up with adjudicator with full penalty at risk. But unless NCC can explain, they will likely lose. It is not enough for them to say that they disagree with earlier decisions, once HC in play, they cannot ignore that. |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:53
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 5 Jul 2014 Member No.: 71,678 |
How would I find out if the TRO has changed since then
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 19:45
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#12
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
This one is important:-
http://davidmarq.com/uploaderv6_1/files/7/...n%201885249.pdf The definitive Shakespeare Street thread is here:- http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...05251&st=20 Plus:- http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-39223830 Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 19:52 |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:55
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,915 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
So they are still enforcing despite a High Court judge ruling that it is illegal. Looks like a clear case of malfeasance to me.
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:52
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#14
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
@ Incandescent
They changed some of the signs and had a big temporary electronic contraption at the side of the road IIRC. We must determine that the pedestrian zone issue still applies even though the photo in Post 1 suggests it does. The GSV is no use since it dates from 2016:- https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Shakesp...33;4d-1.1522512 Mick |
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Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 00:16
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ngham/NG258.pdf
Seems to be the latest TRO in the TPT library and is the one mentioned in the High Court and earlier decisions. With any challenge, specific questions must be asked such as why NCC feel they can ignore High Court case (ref) or what changes they have made to overcome the court's decision. |
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Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 05:57
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 5 Jul 2014 Member No.: 71,678 |
Is there a template that I can use as reply for my representation. I’m not very good at this sort of stuff, I don’t want to let them get away with it. I am also going to contact my local mp regarding them still sending fines when the signs have not changed
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Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 11:50
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#17
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Is there a template that I can use as reply for my representation. I’m not very good at this sort of stuff, I don’t want to let them get away with it. I am also going to contact my local mp regarding them still sending fines when the signs have not changed OP---- you are local and we need to see photos of the signs in place on both sides of the road and if possible any advance warning signs. According to TrafficWeb the Traffic Order noted by DD above is still extant:- http://www.nottinghamtraffweb.co.uk/main.html You are dealing with a Council where you have to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are in error. You can only do this by reference to the signs IMO. Forget about the MP until your case is settled. Once we see your photos we will draft an appeal for you but be prepared to go to adjudication. Mick |
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Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 12:44
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
That is the point that I keep coming back to.
The Sheriff and his men have not changed since the times of Robin Hood. They are quite happy to extract all they can from the common man, often in places where signs are iffy (Goldsmith Tram Gate cough) But are not stupid and went to High Court to argue the case here, losing. They know they lost and also know that any case that gets to adjudication will not only lose but quite possibly see a costs order due to that HC judgement. So cynical that I may be about the Sheriff, I cannot see that they would still be trying it on unless they have changed something that they believe renders the judgement mute. But at the moment cannot see what. |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 15:21
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 5 Jul 2014 Member No.: 71,678 |
https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/A2h4u0 🌅
https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/7Ji139 🌅 I uploaded the new sign up to Flickr but not sure how to get them to display, they seem to ha e removed the text about pedestrian zone however the red circle with car and bike is still there meaning (I believe) no motor vehicles I.e pedestratian zone. The signs previous just suggest it is a dead end nothing about a bus lane |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 15:37
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/A2h4u0 🌅 https://www.flickr.com/gp/138769695@N02/7Ji139 🌅 I uploaded the new sign up to Flickr but not sure how to get them to display, they seem to ha e removed the text about pedestrian zone however the red circle with car and bike is still there meaning (I believe) no motor vehicles I.e pedestratian zone. The signs previous just suggest it is a dead end nothing about a bus lane It does change things as that sign is authorised for use for a bus gate/bus only st. Ask the council for the current TMO, if it has not changed, the statement of reasons might invalidate it (para 45 and 46 of the JR) -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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