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Hire car PCN issued after 3 weeks
Kyrano
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:07
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I received a parking charge notice that was posted to me, date of issue 9th July for an 'offence' that occurred on the 18th June. Issued 3 weeks after the incident. A hire car was photographed entering a car park at 16.12 and then photographed again leaving at 16.29, 17 mins later.

The circumstances were that the driver was looking for somewhere to park while he/she waited for a friend to open a gated residential car park near by. The driver did not at any point leave the car unattended,
but waited inside the car in case any traffic wardens came round.

I think the vehicle entered the car park twice, looking for a space. On the second occasion it is possible the vehicle may have stayed the 17mins.

I am guessing the hire company passed on the hirers details to Premier Park, the company involved. Do the company not have to notify the driver within 14 days of the offence??

Can they company have confused my two entries into the car park using the first entry time and the second exit time to arrive at 17mins?

If the fine is not paid will the hire company simply deduct the fine from the deposit?

Any advice appreciated

This post has been edited by Kyrano: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 14:47
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post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:07
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Kyrano
post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 13:54
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I ignored the request for further information about the driver as you suggested. I now have the following emal from Premier Parking.
Please could you advise and how to proceed in response to this?

Dear Mr X

Thank you for your appeal, on behalf of the driver, against the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have carefully considered your appeal, however on this occasion the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;

The vehicle remained on site for 17 minutes with no payment made to authorise the stay. We must advise that this car park is run by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras which take a time and date stamped image of the vehicle on entry and exit, measuring the length of time the vehicle remained on site, this information is then cross-referenced with the data from the payment services. Furthermore, we would advise that the signage on site does clearly set out the terms and conditions of parking, including the requirement to make payment for the stay. Due to the above reasons we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options; you can either pay or appeal to POPLA - you cannot do both:

You can pay the total amount due as shown above via the following payment options;
Call us on: 01302 513232
Pay online: [www.pcnpayments.com]www.pcnpayments.com
Send a postal order: Premier Park Ltd, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG

Or, you can appeal to an Independent Appeals Service, POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) using the POPLA reference code provided above. Please note, should you decide to appeal to POPLA and your appeal is subsequently rejected or you withdraw your appeal, the option to pay a discounted amount will no longer be available and the full amount of the PCN will become due. Please note, if you pay the PCN prior to appealing to POPLA, your appeal will be withdrawn as you will have accepted liability in full.

If you decide to appeal to POPLA, you will need to visit their website, www.popla.co.uk where further details of how to appeal (either online or by downloading the relevant forms) can be found. If you are unable to access their website, please call us for further information on how to obtain the forms. Please ensure your POPLA Reference Number, as noted above, is quoted on all correspondence to POPLA. You have 28 days from the date of this letter to submit an appeal to POPLA. If you appeal to POPLA we will suspend recovery activity on the PCN and the charge will not increase until the appeal has been determined.

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

If you do not make payment or submit an appeal to POPLA within the relevant timeframe, the outstanding PCN may be passed to our appointed debt collection agency for further action. All costs associated with this process will be added to the amount outstanding.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION
Unless any additional relevant information or facts are provided, Premier Park Ltd considers this to be their final decision regarding this appeal.
Please note that all payments are subject to a 50p administration charge.

This message was sent from an unmonitored e-mail address. Please do not reply to this message.

GDPR – to view how we use and process your data and your rights, including how to object or restrict such use, please see our privacy policy available online at www.premierpark.co.uk/privacy-policy[/color]
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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and may be privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or the entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the named addressee or have received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material immediately. Any unauthorised disclosure or copying is strictly prohibited. Emails and any information transmitted there under may be intercepted, corrupted or delayed. As a result, PP Ltd does not accept any responsibility for any errors or omissions howsoever caused. Whilst all reasonable endeavours are taken by PP Ltd to screen all emails for known viruses, PP Ltd cannot guarantee that any transmission will be virus free.

This post has been edited by Kyrano: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 14:00
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ostell
post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 14:56
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So you appeal to POPLA pointing out the POFA fails and therefore no hirer liability in the matter
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 07:52
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Yep, rejection was expected, so your POPOLA appeal should be ready to go. 4000 word appel from MSE usually does it.
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Kyrano
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 09:41
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Thanks,
So appeal on the basis they failed to provide the correct hire documents to me as per POFA 2012, etc etc??

Can you expand on the 4000 word appeal from MSE??? Thank you
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ManxRed
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 09:44
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Seek out the MoneySavingExpert (MSE) private parking forum, specifically the NEWBIES Thread on that forum, which contains a lengthy POPLA appeal that you can tailor for your circumstances. Specifically they have failed to meet the requirements of sections 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, and as a result they cannot transfer liability for the parking charge from the driver onto the Keeper of the vehicle.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Kyrano
post Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 19:41
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Ok thanks,

Is it worth mentioning ''the allegation involves an over stay of minutes, you must supply evidence of the grace period with the land owner, this is reasonably a period of 20mins '' etc. As the vehicle was only there for 17mins.?
Is it worth adding ''If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum''?

Or keep it simple and stick to the failure to provide hire documents?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 09:24
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There are two grace periods, before parking and after parking.
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Jlc
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 09:34
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QUOTE (Kyrano @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 20:41) *
Is it worth adding ''If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum''?

Don't go there - no parking company (nor 'independent body') will entertain 'loss'.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Smiley1611
post Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 18:16
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Under POFA they are also compelled to provide a whole set of information to the hirer within the relevant period after the notice
They usually omit to send at least one of the three documents, a, b or c to the hirer. In fact, usually they just send (a). I successfully had a charge overturned by POPLA on this basis.
The key is to appeal just before the 21 day period after notice to hirer so that they don't have time to go back an retrieve them (usually the hire company hasn't sent all three to them anyway).
---

Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular Schedule 4 (Recovery of unpaid parking charges), Clause 14(2) and Clause 13(2) of POFA.

14(2)The conditions are that—

(a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a
“notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to
keeper;
...
(3)In sub-paragraph (2)(a) “the relevant period” is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on
which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.

13 (2)
...
(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle
was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and
© a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.
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Kyrano
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 14:11
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Here's my proposed POPLA appeal. Any advice welcome



I have received a Parking Charge Notice posted to my address dated XXXX in respect of a vehicle XXXXX. This was sent by Premier Park, Reference Number XXXXX.

The information sent to this address was incomplete and does not include the relevant documents that are required in these circumstances. These should include:


- A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time of the Parking Charge Notice the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

- A copy of the hire agreement.

- A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

None of these documents were sent to this address within the time frame stipulated in the regulations. Given the drivers identity is unknown and the absence of the relevant documentation, the liability of the alleged offence cannot be transferred on to me.

Premier Park has failed to meet the requirements mentioned in sections 13 and 14 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 and the Parking Charge Notice sent to this address must be regarded as invalid.

Furthermore, the alleged offence was for a period of 17 minutes. The British Parking Association Code of Practice allows for a grace period to allow the driver at the time to read the terms and conditions and having decided not to park but choose to leave the car park. Under these circumstances the grace period ‘must be a minimum of 10 minuets’. It is not therefore in the spirit of the BPA code to issue a Parking Charge Notice in these circumstances particularly where automatic number plate recognition is used.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 14:19
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AS point 1 'keeper liability' it's a start, but it's not invalid, it can't be used to confer liability on the keeper, not the same thing.

Signage? Standing? Have you read any other appeals at all?

Its not an offence its a contractual breach, the BPA grace period is in minutes, not dances.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 14:20


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Kyrano
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 10:01
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I can't really mention anything about the signage as this would suggest I was driving the vehicle?? In any event I didn't look at the signage and the incident took place over 500 miles from where I live so I can't go back to check.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 10:09
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QUOTE (Kyrano @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 11:01) *
I can't really mention anything about the signage as this would suggest I was driving the vehicle??

No, it suggests you went to check it.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Kyrano
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 10:49
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (Kyrano @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 11:01) *
I can't really mention anything about the signage as this would suggest I was driving the vehicle??

No, it suggests you went to check it.



You think I should include something about the signage being defective? Can you be more specific. Will the information on liability not be enough for the PCN to be cancelled? Thanks for your help
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 14:23
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What other threads have YOU read, so you can understand the scam you are part of?
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Kyrano
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 16:54
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 15:23) *
What other threads have YOU read, so you can understand the scam you are part of?



I am very grateful for the advise given to me from this site. The site's tag line is 'Helping the motorist get justice', which is why I am here. I spent several hours reading multiple threads and going through POFA several times, however, I don't have the expertise or knowledge of the regular users. There is always a balance between several hours research verses stumping up £60. But like many motorists I don't like being unfairly penalised
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 5 Sep 2019 - 08:47
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OK thats what we want to hear! Because you need to realise:
1) This is your appeal, not ours
2) By getting you to read the literally dozens of uccesful POPLA appeal thrreads you will hopefully see they have a common theme - standing, signage, and keeper liabiltiy (if driver not identifeid AND they didnt meet POFA requirements) - its all there, ready to be copied.

What we cant do is write it for you. THe regulars number about 12. WE get *hundreds* of threads a year.
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