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Help! Parking Ticket (UK P.A.O. Leeds)
tallgirl
post Fri, 20 Jul 2007 - 12:06
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I have reading other posts with interest and I am wondering what people will make of a ticket I have been issued. Photo here: (for the reason - under with out valid permit or authority! the writing says 'photo of me leaving site')

The ticket was issued 2 minutes after I parked!
The carpark was for Maplin and other some other stores in Leeds. I did leave the site to use a post box but returned to use the stores. I did not read the detial on the signs so did not think leaving the site for a short time would result in a ticket.
(will get photo of sign later)
On reading the signs after the event the signs say parking is allowed for 1 hour and that leaving site is not allowed.

Does this need to be paid?

In leaving site I have not complied with the sign but it looks from others on the site that this is not enforceable??
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post Fri, 20 Jul 2007 - 12:06
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Barnsley Boy
post Fri, 18 Jan 2008 - 21:51
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UK PAO,

I trust that when the Abbie case is lost you will start to clear your backlog. Don't forget to summons me, I'm looking forward to a day out.
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jennifer10
post Sun, 20 Jan 2008 - 13:33
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Like tallgirl and Abbie, I'm suffering at the hands of UK PAO and would really appeciate help from everyone here. I received a parking ticket for £60 a few months ago at the Arndale Center (not the famous one!) in Headingley, Leeds, and have received several 'invoices' with the total charge increasing by £3 per day. I have received the same letter as Abbie threatening a County Court summons if I don't pay £360 within 14 days.
When I parked, I checked the parking restrictions sign at the car park entrance and I believe that I parked according to all of its terms and conditions. I'd like to be able to make sure of this, but unfortunately I did not have any means to take a photo of the sign at the car park entrance, and I live hundreds of miles from Leeds. That makes me hesitate to write to UK PAO and contest the charge, because I have only my memory of the sign to rely on. If anyone on this forum lives in Leeds, shops at the Arndale Center in Headingley and could take a photo of the parking restrictions sign for me, I'd be extremely grateful!

I am reluctant to post further details here because of the warnings above about UK PAO staff reading these threads, but I am desperate for some advice. What sort of letter I should send in reply to the County Court threat? I am terrified of going to court, and will suffer great difficulties if I have to pay £360.

Thank you all in advance!
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weasel
post Sun, 20 Jan 2008 - 13:53
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QUOTE
What sort of letter I should send in reply to the County Court threat? I am terrified of going to court, and will suffer great difficulties if I have to pay £360.





Easy answer is do not reply laugh.gif their letters are threats BUT EMPTY one, these companies rely on you being intimidated by their bluff and bluster, if you get a letter from a debt collection agency(who are usually connected to the private parking company) simply write back telling them to refer the case back to UK PAO as the alleged debt is denied and disputed, they CANNOT resort to bailiffs without a court order which they will not get as they will not take things that far, because they know they WILL LOSE a properly defended case, so do not worry, they will go away and look for a softer victim who does not know their rights when they realise you are not being conned by their threats and bluster



QUOTE
I am reluctant to post further details here because of the warnings above about UK PAO staff reading these threads


It must be infuriating for PPC staff who read (those that can!!) these postings to see yet another wad of money snatched away from their grasping paws and know that there is nothing they can do about it, as the word spreads about these scams their "business" model will get harder and harder to maintain and they will go bust. Its the dole for the boys and girls of the PPCs and it couldn`t happen to a nicer bunch laugh.gif

This post has been edited by weasel: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 - 14:35


--------------------
Camera partnerships ----- probably the best liars in the world!
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leegomery16
post Sun, 20 Jan 2008 - 14:52
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Jennifer,

Follow the advice above. Do not correspond with UKPAO. If a debt collector writes simply write to them and say the debt is denied and tell them to refer it back to their client.

If (highly unlikely) a claim form is issued in a county court (I object to the word "summons" as it implies criminal action, which is not the case here) then I will gladly prepare a defence for you. I can guarantee you I have better legal qualifications than anyone at UKPAO or their debt collector!

Don't worry about it. Treat it the same as these scam e-mails you get from Nigeria!


--------------------
Someone not paying VAT when they should? Email: HM Revenue & Customs

Laws, like men, are born to die. Justice is immortal.
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Barnsley Boy
post Sun, 20 Jan 2008 - 15:12
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Jennifer10,

Don't worry about this unduly. Yes, the letters do appear very threatening, they are designed to intimidate but the advice on here is good - stand firm!

I've been in exactly the same position as you and have been enboldened by the information and advice I've received from this forum. This shower are bullies pure and simple.

Just ask yourself "what is the worst that can happen?"
Answer - you pay £360 to the scammers.

You've already said that you dont want to / can't afford to do this - SO DON'T

Even if by some miniscule chance they did involve County Court it would only be as a final bluff. I'm sure they would have no intention of actually turning up once you'd submitted a "pukka" defence [I'm sure LA, Bama et al would be champing at the bit, ready to submit a beaut.]

The fact that you live hundreds of miles away is also a boon. Any court appearance would be at a location local to you [you get to fill in an allocation questionairre from the county court which resolves location of the hearing, amongst other things].

The £3 / day bit is the most laughable thing about all this. Without going into all the legal arguements, this element, the majority of UK PAO's claim, is absolute complete nonsense.

Regarding the best tactics with this shower -ignore absolutely everything that comes from them, whatever threats are contained therein.
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bama
post Sun, 20 Jan 2008 - 20:47
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jennife10,
as the others have said worry not. it is a Con and they rely on people reacting as you have and then folding under the pressure of their threats. the bad news for the PPCs is that folks here know how the Con works - AND HOW IT FAILS - better than the PPCs do/
the regulars are looking for any opportunity that presents itself to get a PPC into court - but that needs an 'invoicee' who is up for the fight. Like many others you don't feel up to that and that is fine. You are now one less fish they can hook and you are not paying them. we already have a double winner in your case !!

Once you have your mind settled tell ALL your friends about these PPC scams and how to handle them. Spread the love as it were.

Do NOT pay.
Do NOT Phone/write/contact them.
Keep all their B/S letters in the drawer.
If you get a 'Debt Collector' letter write back to them denying the existence of the debt and refer them back to the issuing company (as above). By all means post here before doing so.

If you get real Court papers (some of these PPCs will issue fake ones, yet another law broken by them) then post back here and the combined forces of pepipoo will make sure you get the proper defense so on your day in court (actually getting real Court papers is a million to one shot BTW) you win and the judge will award you some cash.
There is no known instance here of a properly defended case being lost - or even of the PPC turning up in Court ! You see the PPCs also know it is a Con and how it fails.

So, No loss or risk to you and the PPC spends money on letters and issuing courts papers and then they lose.
Just the kind of scenario we like here.

"The Con is off" smile.gif smile.gif

(Hiya Steve smile.gif )



--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Grimsby Man
post Mon, 21 Jan 2008 - 15:56
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Hi my first time on this kind of site.

Had a notice come to my company, stating that one of the company vehicles had a parking charge attached to it.

Wrote back telling them that the company was the registered keeper and they needed to get in touch with the driver. At the same time I sent all of the details and copies of notice to Trading Standards and DVLA.

Had a reply back from them stating "how would the DVLA know who was driving the vehicle" and if I'am not prepared to pass on the drivers details, I can defend myself in court.

Wrote back to them today, quoting 3.5 of the DVLA Voluntary Code of Practice for Private Car Parking Enforcement (The notice sent to us does not include details of the incident giving rise to the claim or any evidence that the vehicle was there.) and any more correspondence would result in charges being applied by us.

Did'nt find this site soon enough. Have I done the right thing?
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bama
post Mon, 21 Jan 2008 - 16:33
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Do NOT pay.
Do NOT Phone/write/contact them.
Keep all their B/S letters in the drawer.
If you get a 'Debt Collector' letter write back to them denying the existence of the debt and refer them back to the issuing company (as above). By all means post here before doing so.

just keep any other letters your company gets.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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daratoma
post Mon, 21 Jan 2008 - 16:41
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The advice here is a revelation. Many assume a ticket is just and should be paid. It goes against our fear of court action and baliffs the to challenge. Bama's advice is almost a mantra and is just.
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Grimsby Man
post Mon, 21 Jan 2008 - 17:02
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Thanks biggrin.gif

We get a lot of bogus invoices (buying advertising space is the worst)

Why isnt this company registed for VAT
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Barnsley Boy
post Mon, 21 Jan 2008 - 17:37
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QUOTE (Grimsby Man @ Mon, 21 Jan 2008 - 15:56) *
Hi my first time on this kind of site.

Had a notice come to my company, stating that one of the company vehicles had a parking charge attached to it.

Wrote back telling them that the company was the registered keeper and they needed to get in touch with the driver. At the same time I sent all of the details and copies of notice to Trading Standards and DVLA.

Had a reply back from them stating "how would the DVLA know who was driving the vehicle" and if I'am not prepared to pass on the drivers details, I can defend myself in court.

Wrote back to them today, quoting 3.5 of the DVLA Voluntary Code of Practice for Private Car Parking Enforcement (The notice sent to us does not include details of the incident giving rise to the claim or any evidence that the vehicle was there.) and any more correspondence would result in charges being applied by us.

Did'nt find this site soon enough. Have I done the right thing?


Grimsby Man,

"Have I done the right thing?" - YES - you've annoyed them and refused to part with your cash, sounds like the right thing to me.

One question - is it UK PAO we are talking about? not totally clear from your post.
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leegomery16
post Mon, 21 Jan 2008 - 17:38
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You can defend yourself in court? Yeah, like they'll ever take it to court. Got to love their persistence!


--------------------
Someone not paying VAT when they should? Email: HM Revenue & Customs

Laws, like men, are born to die. Justice is immortal.
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Grimsby Man
post Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 07:54
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Yes it is UK PAO







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daratoma
post Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 10:40
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It appears it's not only a 'contract' with the driver. There's space for passenger.

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simon_k
post Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 11:13
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That's really bad! I know it's worded carefully with things like 'You must not ignore this notice' - i could write that on letters to people, and 'please note we MAY ASK THE COURT to enforce..... balliff..... clamp and remove......' - i might ask the court for a ferrari.

Does the Admin of Justice Act cover things that would leave a reasonable average person assuming something was official??
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Chas820
post Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 13:30
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I love that little bit at the bottom that says/due to data protection we have no public access to our office/if they did people would que up to thump them.
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Grimsby Man
post Fri, 25 Jan 2008 - 11:24
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Done a little more research and found this news letter
UK P.A.O Ltd are not memebers of any accredited Trade Association

Any one who as got a Notice after Oct 07 should write to DVLA



BPA Initiative to End Rogue Ticketing
[b]news release
[/b]
Ref: BPA 340Date: 18 April 2007
BPA Initiative to End Rogue Ticketing
Rogue companies which issue parking tickets on private land will be driven out of the market thanks to an initiative set to be enforced later this year. From October 2007, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) will release vehicle registration information only to those companies which are members of an Accredited Trade Association. The British Parking Association (BPA), which is to become the first Accredited Trade Association, said today (18 April 2007) at Parkex, Europe’s largest parking industry fair, that the initiative will prevent motorists receiving high-priced, unregulated tickets. As it has the responsibility of being the only parking organisation with official DVLA accreditation, the BPAhas also announced that it will be launching its own Approved Operator Scheme, backed by a Code of Practice for Parking Enforcement on Private Land and Unregulated Car Parks. Members that do not comply with the terms of this Code (see notes for terms) could have their BPA membership initially suspended, and possibly terminated (dependent on individual circumstances of complaint).


this is from the DVLA


Press release 23: New Code of

Practice issued by Accredited Trade

Associations


Release Date: 01/10/2007From 1 October 2007, unregulated companies and organisations who request vehicle registration information electronically from the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) must be members of a DVLA Accredited Trade Association.

Those bodies and companies seeking approved conditional access that do not have an appropriate regulatory body are required to be current members of an ‘accredited’ trade association. Part of the process for ‘accrediting’ trade associations will include ensuring that there is a clear and enforced code of conduct (for example relating to conduct and how DVLA data may be used)

This is the last of the 14 major new measures to be introduced following an announcement on 24 July 2006 of a review of the release of data from the UK vehicle registers to ensure it is undertaken in a way that:

  • protects vehicle keepers from misuse of their information;
  • ensures that those who do have a good case can get the data they need;
  • balances the right to privacy of individuals whose data is held on the register with the rights of others to gain proper redress;
  • is cost effective – in that the costs to all are proportionate to the benefits that the scheme delivers;
  • and is right in principle and works in practice.
- ends -

Notes for Editors

Details of when information is released can be found by logging on to:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Ownin...pingYourVehicle

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Grimsby Man
post Fri, 25 Jan 2008 - 16:10
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Just got reply from DVLA

anybody wanting a copy PM me






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Abbie
post Fri, 25 Jan 2008 - 18:13
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Ok i have a date......4 April 2008 at 2.30pm!!

Any one want to come!!!

I have to file all the documents that I intend to rely on so if anyone has any great advice on that it would be helpful.

Also i have been told I can file a witness statement as well so any help on that as well - I assume that wont be too dissimilar to the actual defence.

I like the last line though of the Notice - "A party in default may be ordered to pay the costs of a wasted hearing". Shall i just tell them who to make out the cheque to now?

Anyone who could or would like to help please either post or PM me!!

And if you want to come for the circus by all means do!!

A
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Barnsley Boy
post Fri, 25 Jan 2008 - 18:39
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It would be great if they actually turn up but I just don't see it. I'm sure that the legal eagles will help to maximise your counter claim for recovery of costs, all the more certain if they don't turn up.

Good luck Abbie, not that you need it.

I know and appreciate that a lot of stuff will have to be done by PM but I'm awful curious to see their actual claim document. Will they really try to go for the £3 a day "liquidated damages" or have they toned the micky mouse stuff down a bit?
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