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2x Intention To Prosecutes from Essex Police received by my leasing company (Lex Autolease) in the same week, Help!
samosa111
post Sun, 22 May 2022 - 14:53
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Hi there

Our leasing company has received TWO Intention To Prosecute notices in one week from Essex Police.

I have run the wizard but as the notices are issued to the leasing company (not us), it has come back with no action required.

The leasing company (Lex) have advised that they have already notified Essex Police that we are the owners of the vehicle, and that the Police will now reissue the notices to us. Haven't received them yet.

As a passing comment, the camera installed at that location looks as though it is a traffic light camera but, we now know it is a speeding camera.

We're being proactive in reaching out to the community here to see if there are any technical grounds which would invalidate the notices.

Here's a link to the notices:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnnWeH4tszETkpA7Ene...0A1sAQ?e=ClSYcT

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

This post has been edited by samosa111: Sun, 22 May 2022 - 14:55
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post Sun, 22 May 2022 - 14:53
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douglasb
post Sun, 22 May 2022 - 15:38
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When you get your own s172 notice, before you nominate a driver you could ask the camera people for photos to assist in identifying the driver. These probably won't help if the cameras are "speed on green" - which are combined red light cameras plus speed cameras to catch people exceeding the limit while the lights are at green - as the photo will be taken from behind. However the photo might show up some inconsitency (although this is unlikely). They also don't have to provide photos at this stage but many forces do.

If the driver hasn't done a speed awareness course in the last 3 years they should get one for the first offence and a fixed penalty of £100/3 points for the other.

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The Rookie
post Sun, 22 May 2022 - 15:58
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QUOTE (samosa111 @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 15:53) *
The leasing company (Lex) have advised that they have already notified Essex Police that we are the owners of the vehicle, and that the Police will now reissue the notices to us. Haven't received them yet.

I doubt very much that Lex said anything of the sort.
1. If it’s leased you aren’t the owner
2. Lex are required to name the driver or provide such information as they have that will help the police find the driver, ownership is irrelevant, but they have almost certainly named you as the vehicle keeper.

That’s correct, you will get a notice to you bearing a section 172 request requiring that you name the driver.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sun, 22 May 2022 - 19:26


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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NewJudge
post Sun, 22 May 2022 - 17:05
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QUOTE (samosa111 @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 15:53) *
We're being proactive in reaching out to the community here to see if there are any technical grounds which would invalidate the notices.


There doesn’t seem much wrong with the NIPs. The first was produced six days after the offence and presumably posted that day. The second was produced four days after the offence and also presumably posted that day. This means the “presumption of service” of two working days after posting puts them well inside the 14 day deadline.

When did Lex inform you of this? It is now a month since the first offence and you could ask them when they received the NIPs. If they received them beyond 14 days and you can convince a court of that fact, you have the makings of a "David Beckham" defence:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45668735

Other than that, as the NIP Wizard suggests, there is no action for you to take until you get your own s172 requests for driver's details. I take you know who was driving on each occasion?


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TMC Towcester
post Sun, 22 May 2022 - 17:12
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I note 'we' are the owners (keepers). By inference the lease is in a company name? Are you a director, employee, something else?
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samosa111
post Sun, 22 May 2022 - 19:25
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QUOTE (douglasb @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 16:38) *
When you get your own s172 notice, before you nominate a driver you could ask the camera people for photos to assist in identifying the driver. These probably won't help if the cameras are "speed on green" - which are combined red light cameras plus speed cameras to catch people exceeding the limit while the lights are at green - as the photo will be taken from behind. However the photo might show up some inconsitency (although this is unlikely). They also don't have to provide photos at this stage but many forces do.

If the driver hasn't done a speed awareness course in the last 3 years they should get one for the first offence and a fixed penalty of £100/3 points for the other.



I didnt even realise there was such as thing as a combined camera. Good to know.

I will do as you suggest and request photos.



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 16:58) *
QUOTE (samosa111 @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 15:53) *
The leasing company (Lex) have advised that they have already notified Essex Police that we are the owners of the vehicle, and that the Police will now reissue the notices to us. Haven't received them yet.

I doubt very much that Lex said anything of the sort.
1. If it’s leased you aren’t the owner
2. Lex are required to name the driver or provide such information as they Haley that will help the police find the driver, ownership is irrelevant, but they have almost certainly named you as the vehicle keeper.

That’s correct, you will get a notice to you bearing a section 172 request requiring that you name the driver.



I dont recall the exact conversation and you are probably correct in your precise explanation.



QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 18:05) *
QUOTE (samosa111 @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 15:53) *
We're being proactive in reaching out to the community here to see if there are any technical grounds which would invalidate the notices.


There doesn’t seem much wrong with the NIPs. The first was produced six days after the offence and presumably posted that day. The second was produced four days after the offence and also presumably posted that day. This means the “presumption of service” of two working days after posting puts them well inside the 14 day deadline.

When did Lex inform you of this? It is now a month since the first offence and you could ask them when they received the NIPs. If they received them beyond 14 days and you can convince a court of that fact, you have the makings of a "David Beckham" defence:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45668735

Other than that, as the NIP Wizard suggests, there is no action for you to take until you get your own s172 requests for driver's details. I take you know who was driving on each occasion?



I request this information and Lex and report back to you.

And yes, I await the S173 notice.





QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 22 May 2022 - 18:12) *
I note 'we' are the owners (keepers). By inference the lease is in a company name? Are you a director, employee, something else?



Yes that is correct. Car is in company name. I am one of the directors.

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samosa111
post Thu, 23 Jun 2022 - 13:09
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Dear all


It's been around a month since my leasing company received notices and provided my company's contact details. Since then I have NOT received S172 notices.

Should I be doing anything/contacting anyone?







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The Rookie
post Thu, 23 Jun 2022 - 14:57
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You can confirm that Lex provided the correct details, otherwise, while a timeout is at best a remote opportunity, it is getting closer!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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samosa111
post Thu, 23 Jun 2022 - 16:45
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 23 Jun 2022 - 15:57) *
You can confirm that Lex provided the correct details, otherwise, while a timeout is at best a remote opportunity, it is getting closer!


I will recheck with the leasing company, but I would be very surprised if they haven't provided the correct details. Will revert back in due course.



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samosa111
post Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 09:49
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I finally received one (of the two) Intention to Prosecute notifications readdressed to my company by post yesterday:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AnnWeH4tszETlPpE4Iu...gBY-cA?e=q3Ec1n

The second one hasnt arrived yet.

What is the next step please?
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NewJudge
post Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 10:15
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QUOTE (samosa111 @ Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 10:49) *
What is the next step please?

Respond to the request for the driver's identity within the time allowed. The driver should be offered an awareness course for that speed provided her or she has not done one for an offence which occurred in the three years prior to this one. If not a Fixed Penalty of £100 and 3 points awaits. A course will not be offered for the second offence and if the speed alleged is under 50mph the same fixed penalty should be offered.
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Slapdash
post Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 10:37
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I am guessing your company wasn't driving.

The appropriate authority in the company (you will do) needs to fill out Section B nominating who it believes was driving (you).

If the company decided to ignore it then it would be prosecuted. Fine upto £1000 I think. In this case the company doesn't have a licence to give 6 points to. The police may potentially choose to make other enquiries to identify the driver.

Assuming the company nominate you then you will get your own. At this point you can identify yourself as the driver.

For the speed a course should be offered if eligible. In the alternative a CoFP for £100/3 points.

This post has been edited by Slapdash: Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 10:39
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samosa111
post Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 10:43
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Many thanks to @Slapdash and @NewJudge for the comments.

I appears that there is no wriggle room here. We have no choice than to disclose the driver and to accept the points or speed awareness course (as the case may be).

Interesting, this popped up in my feed yesterday. What do you make of this?

https://www.tiktok.com/@mohsintoga/video/71...D7GryP&_r=1

This post has been edited by samosa111: Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 10:44
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Slapdash
post Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 11:25
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It is an offence not to respond to the notice.

That offence is committed by the addressee.

If the addressee is an individual there is a fine and there is a 6 point endorsement.

If it is a body corporate - which happens to be a different legal entity - there is a larger fine. But the company doesn't have a licence to endorse.

Nobody should advise this. It is not a legal course of action. But I imagine offences of this kind are far from unheard of.

This may, or may not be the end of the matter.

Hypothetically for example the authorities could (not will) still send a request to anybody they think may have information. Perhaps all tje officers of the company. Perhaps all the drivers recorded on the insurance policy.

They might be more likely to do this if it were a one man band type of operation. Who knows.

There may be circumstance in which they felt there was possibly collusion between a probable driver and the company. This could amount to perverting the course of justice.



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NewJudge
post Wed, 27 Jul 2022 - 11:40
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This site will not allow advice to be given which involves breaking the law. Refusing to respond to a request for driver's details is breaking the law. As well as that, as mentioned above, there is nothing to prevent the police issuing a s172 request to anybody they see fit. So the Company may end up fined and any individuals who receive a s172 request will face the same predicament as the Company. The difference is that they are liable to receive six points on their driving record if they fail to respond.
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