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dvla clamps
markadams
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 05:56
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I am a car trader, i have motor trade insurance, and all vehicles are purchased via main agents, put `in trade` using the yellow slip, and stay in my custody or control until sold.
Being `in trade` as i recall means i dont have to tax insure the car etc. If the car needs moving, or for demonstration i use trade plates.

I can only keep 7 cars at home so i use a couple of private parking areas. I have a friend with a flat in each so use the many many available parking spaces as i dont have premises. Private car par, private land.

So i went to my cars yesterday and the cars had been clamped, clearly reported to dvla. Maybe dvla hadnt checked they were in trade and it stated they had been reported to dvla and clamped. The company that clamped them i believe is NSL and they have a compound in west bromwich.

A quick look on the gov.uk website tells me these cars need to be sorned, but how can i take a sorned car onto the road for a text drive? Or for an mot?

So this morning i need to make some calls and am asking your incredible brains where i stand with this.

i have read this....

https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-...n/motor-traders

It doesnt make good reading especially as i dont have `business premises` which actually means i cant park them at home without SORN, and if i do and their on a test drive im then also comitting anoffence


This post has been edited by markadams: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 06:17
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post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 05:56
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southpaw82
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 17:16
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QUOTE (markadams @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 18:14) *
Im not trying to be awkard or flippant and maybe im missing something here, but the dvla have explained how they come to the figure....the only way they could have come to it is if i have to pay back 2 months backtax, june and july, i bought it in june and in july it was seen on a road.

Therefore it was exempt for june becuase they cannot bring a case against june that it was NOT on a public road in June....thats what i am trying to get at.

Even if that is so, where does it leave you? You accept the offer believing it to be wrong, you ask them to amend it hoping they agree and don’t simply withdraw it or you go to court where their offer becomes moot.


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localdriver
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 17:27
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QUOTE (markadams @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 18:14) *
the only way they could have come to it is if i have to pay back 2 months backtax, june and july, i bought it in june and in july it was seen on a road. Therefore it was exempt for june becuase they cannot bring a case against june that it was NOT on a public road in June....thats what i am trying to get at.


The offence is being the person who uses or keeps an unlicensed vehicle. It doesn't matter where it is, on-road, off-road, locked in a private garage etc., unless it is exempt, a registered vehicle is required to be licensed.

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Logician
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 22:44
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QUOTE (markadams @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 18:14) *
Im not trying to be awkard or flippant and maybe im missing something here, but the dvla have explained how they come to the figure....the only way they could have come to it is if i have to pay back 2 months backtax, june and july, i bought it in june and in july it was seen on a road. Therefore it was exempt for june becuase they cannot bring a case against june that it was NOT on a public road in June....thats what i am trying to get at.


If say a member of the public has a vehicle on SORN and it is seen on the road in June, the back tax demanded is not just for June, it is back to the time when it was last fully taxed. It is no use claiming it was off the road prior to June.

You are being dealt with in the same way, back tax demanded from the time the car was last taxed.



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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 07:15
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QUOTE (markadams @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 18:14) *
Im not trying to be awkard or flippant and maybe im missing something here, but the dvla have explained how they come to the figure....the only way they could have come to it is if i have to pay back 2 months backtax, june and july, i bought it in june and in july it was seen on a road.

Therefore it was exempt for june becuase they cannot bring a case against june that it was NOT on a public road in June....thats what i am trying to get at.

Yes, and thats because you owe from when the vehicle SHOULD HAVE been taxed - june - onwards. 2 months.
Once you lost the exemption - and it sounds like it was never gained - you lose it back to the start. Not from that point forward

That appears to be your fundamental failure to understand: they get you for the whole period.
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blackcross
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 08:12
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Under SORN the vehicle not being on a public road is irrelevant. Keep it on private land and it still needs to be licensed/taxed unless a SORN is in force.

For traders there seems to be a concession that as long as the private land is also business premises an exemption will apply. However you have admitted that the land fails the business premises test, so the exemption does not apply.

While you might think DVLA are pulling a fast one there is no evidence that they are doing anything than acting properly. In any event, this will shortly become academic as their patience will run out and you will be off to court, where you can try your argument on the magistrates.

This post has been edited by blackcross: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 08:13
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TheDisapprovingB...
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 08:13
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QUOTE (markadams @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 18:14) *
Im not trying to be awkard or flippant and maybe im missing something here, but the dvla have explained how they come to the figure....the only way they could have come to it is if i have to pay back 2 months backtax, june and july, i bought it in june and in july it was seen on a road.

Therefore it was exempt for june becuase they cannot bring a case against june that it was NOT on a public road in June....thats what i am trying to get at.


They don't need to do anything "against june". If it goes to court, the ONLY thing they need to show is "This vehicle was on a public road at some point and was untaxed" and if you're found guilty of that, you'll be looking at the greater of £1000 or 5x the ANNUAL tax rate. Any previous "offer" goes out the window the moment you opt for court. It seems you don't dispute that the vehicle was in fact on the road and untaxed, so paying a month or two of tax that you don't think you should have been caught for is still going to be massively cheaper than paying the actual fine if it goes to court.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 08:52
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Oh dear
QUOTE (TheDisapprovingBrit @ Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 09:13) *
the ONLY thing they need to show is "This vehicle was on a public road at some point and was untaxed"

No they just have to show it was untaxed and not SORN/exempt, they don't have to show it was on the road at all.

QUOTE (TheDisapprovingBrit @ Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 09:13) *
you'll be looking at the greater of £1000 or 5x the ANNUAL tax rate

No, he'll be lo0king at 50% of his RWI per offence, those are the maximum, the fine is means based.

QUOTE (TheDisapprovingBrit @ Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 09:13) *
It seems you don't dispute that the vehicle was in fact on the road and untaxed

They (not the) wasn't on the road though, they were not on the business premises which is part of the exemption criteria for traders.

I agree paying the penalty would be cheaper though!

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 08:53


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MyronAub
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 09:21
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QUOTE (markadams @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 17:14) *
they cannot bring a case against june that it was NOT on a public road in June....thats what i am trying to get at.

They do not have to "bring a case against June."

Vehicle tax is payable from when the last tax expired unless the vehicle is exempt. Your vehicle was caught outside business premises and so lost its exemption. As soon as the exemption was lost the entire tax due from when it last expired becomes payable, it's as simple as that. The law that states this is the "Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994."

QUOTE (TheDisapprovingBrit @ Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 08:13) *
you'll be looking at the greater of £1000 or 5x the ANNUAL tax rate.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 08:52) *
No, he'll be lo0king at 50% of his RWI per offence, those are the maximum, the fine is means based.

I think TonyS got it right:

QUOTE
(3)a person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to an excise penalty of—
(a)level 3 on the standard scale, or
(b)five times the amount of the vehicle excise duty chargeable (an amount equal to the annual rate of duty) ,whichever is the greater.
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TheDisapprovingB...
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 13:08
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 09:52) *
No, he'll be lo0king at 50% of his RWI per offence, those are the maximum, the fine is means based.


As the vehicles are "in trade", would that be calculated as OP's RWI, or the companies RWI? That could make a significant difference to the amount in play.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 14:35
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QUOTE (MyronAub @ Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 10:21) *
I think TonyS got it right:

QUOTE
(3)a person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to an excise penalty of—
(a)level 3 on the standard scale, or
(b)five times the amount of the vehicle excise duty chargeable (an amount equal to the annual rate of duty) ,whichever is the greater.


Nope
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offenc...-excise-licence
The L3 or 5x is clearly under the column titled MAXIMUM.

Then fine starting points are
A (1-3 months unpaid) B (4-6 months unpaid) C (7-12 months unpaid) and consider adding unpaid duty.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 14:36


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andy_foster
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 15:26
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QUOTE (markadams @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 09:30) *
QUOTE (localdriver @ Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 17:37) *
... there are only three exemptions in s.29, Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1988, none of which apply to a vehicle that is 'in trade' unless the vehicle is kept by a motor trader or vehicle tester at business premises. It doesn't matter if it is on road, off road, seen or unseen, the DVLA will know if it is licensed or not.


Are you telling me that a motor trader who has a vehicle in trade and is on his premises and has sent off the yellow slip to dvla is commiting an offence relating to road fund licence?


Drugs are bad, m'kay?


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