Question on Traffic Orders, Thos pesky Newham 20 minute bays. |
Question on Traffic Orders, Thos pesky Newham 20 minute bays. |
Mon, 9 Dec 2019 - 19:59
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
When browsing Gazette notices I recall a lot refer to previous Orders that they are amending.
Is such reference to previous orders mandatory if a restriction is changed? This relates to the dichotomy of 20 minute bays in Newham's FGN zone. To remind you, the Gazette notice of twelve orders said > " ‘Shared use’ parking places (permit holders and free short stay parking) in which vehicles without a permit may be left without charge between 8am and 6.30pm on Monday to Saturday inclusive for a maximum period of 20 minutes, with a prohibition on returning to that same parking place within a period of 1 hour, in (list of roads) Vehicles displaying a permit may be left in these parking places without time limit;" Link > https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2594634 I've never seen the actual resultant order but I'll ask for it. That notice was August, for start 5th December 2016. I've just discovered that there was a further order made 28th November, for same start date. For the same roads and some extra ones it corrects the wording to reflect the rest of the borough, i.e. that the bays are for Newham permit holders only and they are limited to 20 minutes. So my question is, can the November order be valid if it doesn't specifically amend the August one? i.e. There may be two differing orders extant at the same time. I guess I have to look at what was finally written in the August order, rather than just the notice. -------------------- |
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Mon, 9 Dec 2019 - 19:59
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Mon, 9 Dec 2019 - 21:08
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
What does the order actually say?
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 15:28
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
The November one -
'---- in which a vehicle may be left during the permitted hours free of charge for a maximum period of 20 minutes if it displays a valid permit.' (I shortened it; it actually lists all the types of permit.) --- I'm now wondering if my understanding of Gazette notices is wrong? That notice listed 12 orders and, I now note, "proposes to make". I guess it means they made the actual orders between August and 5th December and that they were varied as they went along; which explains some additional streets being mentioned. It appears my believing there was a cock up in the order was unfounded but it leaves the mystery of why I've seen Newham cancel PCNs for such bays in FGN zone? Never stop learning on this forum - even I was typing this the realisations came. -------------------- |
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Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 16:00
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
AIUI, the entry in the Gazette merely fulfils the steps of giving notice - it isn’t the actual order itself.
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 18:07
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 516 Joined: 27 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,840 |
The power to vary (amend) a previous order comes from RTRA 1984 Schedule 9 Part IV, para 27.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedule/9 It enables an order to vary or revoke a previously made order. Unless the amending order names the previously made order it is amending, there is no way of knowing which previously made order is being amended. The order making process then has to follow these regulations when it comes to publishing notices and what those notices must contain. If the amendments fall under regs 19-21 it becomes more complex.. Reg 14 is also worthy of note. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents/made It is often the case that there is an original order that has been amended many times. London orders are notorious for being messy. I’ve seen some original orders that have well over 100 amending orders relating to it. They become almost impossible to interpret but for those with patience, a good hunting ground for unearthing contradictions and other cock ups. This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 18:24 |
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Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 21:51
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
AIUI, the entry in the Gazette merely fulfils the steps of giving notice - it isn’t the actual order itself. Correct, and it is a source of great frustration in the council forum when people quote the gazette notices as if they were the provisions of the order. It does happen that the order in no way reflects the council's intent, for example see the cluster-fuсk here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1488620 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 08:35
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
The power to vary (amend) a previous order Thanks but no longer relevant since I answered my own question through realisation as I was typing. (to my embarrassment) Nothing was amended: The 'notice' was only a proposal. This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 12:30 -------------------- |
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