Abandoned Vehicle Options

[lashes1984]

Hello All

Not sure if I've posted to the correct forum, but here goes...

I brought a new vehicle in March 2019. Still had my old vehicle but the MOT needed doing as well as some minor repairs to the doors (dented) and the mechanism on my electric windows was faulty. So I declared the vehicle SORN until I was ready to sort out MOT etc.

I live on a council estate which requires an estate permit and at the time of renewing the permit I explained that the vehicle was SORN and was subsequently issued a new permit.

Parking on my estate is managed by Wing Parking on behalf of the council. One of the parking attendants kept asking me about my car if I wanted to sell it etc. but I kept fobbing him off eventually telling him that I would report him to Wing Parking and the Council. I already had concerns about him, because he would issue Parking Charge Notices to my neighbours vehicles and then say he would call the office to cancel it as long as they paid £20.

Anyway came home on 09/07/2019 to find my old vehicle had been removed. Called TRACE and they advised that they had no record and that it wasn't taken up by the Council or DVLA. So I made a report to the Police. I then received an email from the Police next day to advise that Wing Parking towed away my vehicle.

Contacted Wing Parking and they eventually told me they towed away my vehicle due to not being taxed and that the SORN was not recognised as it was a Council Estate irrespective of whether I had been issued a permit or not.

They sent me picture taken on 21/05/2019 at 7am, where I was allegedly issued a Abandoned Vehicle Notice; however, I didn't receive this.

They then sent a notice stating that I could retrieve the vehicle and pay removal costs and storage charges by 02/08/2019, following which the vehicle would be disposed of.

Around this time I was going through a bit of a crisis personally and was signed off work and had to receive psychological support from the GP, so didn't really have the strength or willpower to deal with retrieving my old vehicle. So kind of just left it.

Since that time the same parking attendant keeps bothering me about the vehicle.

One week he asked if I had the keys and V5C and suggested I give it to him so that he can collect my personal belongings out the car if I wanted. Another week he suggested calling them and just paying the removal fees and said that they would cancel the storage fees that were accruing daily.

This has gone on for a few months, until it dawned on me that my impression was that the vehicle should've already been disposed of.

So I out of curiosity I contacted Wing Parking last week and they have said that the vehicle hasn't yet been disposed of and said that I can retrieve it at the cost of £150 plus £630. I was debating whether I should recover the vehicle and I did say that I could pay the £150 and asked if they could waiver the storage fees, but they said no. The vehicle is 8 years old and not even worth £500, it has more sentimental value than anything.

Does it strike anyone else as unusual that the vehicle hasn't been disposed of yet? Is it normal for the vehicle to be kept for a number of months?

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[stamfordman]

Call DVLA and find out what you need to do to get out of being the keeper, saying it's a SORNed vehicle seized for disposal.

[hcandersen]

OP, you still confuse me with your references to 'on the estate'. You surely don't think a permit allows you to park on common grassed/turfed areas surely? You park on roads or other metalled surface.

Anyway, I think SORN is a red herring.

You were displaying a permit issued by the council. You say that you received nothing, whether by way of notice placed on the vehicle or sent to you , from a competent authority warning you that in their opinion the car appeared to be abandoned.

Then write to the council, copy to WING and Haringey Homes

VRM ****; Permit No. *****

I refer to the above vehicle, a ******, for which you issued permit **** on *****. This was in force until *****.

On **** I discovered that my vehicle had been removed and my subsequent enquiries established that this had been removed by WING on the instructions of Haringey Homes, see enclosed letter dated *****.

I also refer you to the current consultation being undertaken by Haringey Homes regarding parking on the estate, the FAQs of which state as support for their preferred option of introducing formal orders to regulate parking:

3. ..current legislation (POFA 2012) 'prevents us from clamping or towing vehicles'

So they, on your behalf, prefer to circumvent these controls by removing vehicles under the pretext of appearing to be abandoned.

My car was not abandoned neither did its condition resemble that of an abandoned vehicle. In any event, the council who are the only competent authority as regards the Refuse Disposal Amenity Act and regulations, did not act in accordance with the prescribed procedure as regards determining whether a vehicle is abandoned. Consequently its removal was unlawful.

I require you to deliver the vehicle to me, to do which please contact me on ******** to make the necessary arrangements.

If I do not hear from you within 7 days I shall presume that you do not intend to return my vehicle and I shall therefore consider what action to take against you.


Does this cover matters?

[lashes1984]

When did I say I parked on a common grass area or turf.

I parked on the road within the marked bay painted by Homes for Haringey. Where I live is actually a cul-de-sac with a group of purpose built flats similar to a new build. I’m only referring to it as an estate as this is what the council have always referred to it as.

By using the term estate I am also letting you know that it is considered off-road.

The SORN may or may not be a red herring but WING have said they removed the car due to no tax and the SORN not being recognised to entitle me to park where I did.

Anyhow....I thank you for the draft below I shall send off and update accordingly.

[hcandersen]

I parked on the road within the marked bay painted by Homes for Haringey

This might have been clear in your mind, but until your welcome confirmation above, you had not said so.

Will you pl forget about what WING said, the only thing they have expressed is contained in the letter i.e. RDA. They have no powers to remove under the RDA because you have no tax...FFS, tax discs disappeared years ago,. DVLA could remove, but not WING or the council. And if having an untaxed vehicle was a breach of the tenancy agreement, this did not give rise to any legal basis for their unilateral action.

They have cited the RDA, and that's it.

[lashes1984]

Ok thanks. I will send the draft and update once I receive a reply.

[DancingDad]

Full agreement with HCA.

End of the day, the council, who are your landlords no matter who they subcontract to manage the estate, gave you a permit to park despite having no tax and in full knowledge of that.
Then their agents seize the vehicle citing RDA etc. Which they have no direct authority to use, any authority subtends from the council and guess what, council cannot give you permission then use what they gave you permission for to seize the vehicle.

This is also one where I would be talking quite assertively with my local councillor....get them on your side if you can. Assertive but polite.

No tax may invalidate a permit supplied with the proviso that the vehicle is taxed.
It cannot invalidate a permit that was supplied in the knowledge that the vehicle was not taxed.

I would not agree that notices on a car with a valid permit is enough either. They have your name and address, if there was an issue, they could have actually knocked on your door, put a note through, sent a letter.

[lashes1984]

So wrote to the Council as advised and was informed that my correspondence will be sent to Homes for Haringey for a response, which I have now received:

Thank you for your correspondence below regarding your vehicle that was removed by Wing Parking.

I apologise for our failure to communicate with you to give you an update on the actions taken following receipt of your emails. I believe there has been a misunderstanding in the way we dealt with your enquiry and I am sorry for any frustration you have felt as a result.

Initially when we received your first email dated 14 November 2019, it was sent to our Parking & Projects team as a Service Request, this would enable the service to deal with your request quickly and reach a resolution. We were later informed by the Parking & Projects Team that this should not have been logged because there is an appeals process that needs to be followed first. This is because it is our policy to allow customers the opportunity to exhaust any other means of resolution before investigating concerns via our Feedback procedures. I am sorry this was not communicated to you earlier.

We also received an enquiry on your behalf by Councillor Reg Rice on 15 November 2019 which was logged on our system as a Member Enquiry. I can confirm that a full response has been sent to the Councillor. I have attached our response for ease of reference.

The Parking & Projects team are treating your emails as a request for an appeal and you can expect to receive the outcome of their investigation this week. I do hope you are reassured that we have not been ignoring your request for help to resolve the problems with your vehicle.

And this is what they sent to the Councillor as a response:

Thank you for your enquiry on behalf of XXX, whose vehicle has been removed from the Park View Road Estate under our procedures for managing Abandoned Vehicles.
XXX believes her vehicle was removed incorrectly and has also raised various allegations regarding the officers working for Wing Parking, our parking enforcement contractor. XXX has complained directly to Wing who have investigated and are satisfied that they acted in accordance with both their own procedures and our standing orders. In addition, we have reviewed Wing’s actions and are satisfied the correct procedures have been followed on this occasion.
Unfortunately, this vehicle has repeatedly been parking on our estates in breach of the terms of the local Estate Controlled Parking Scheme. In addition to the current action this vehicle has received several parking tickets for failing to park in accordance with the local parking rules, some of which remain unpaid.
Ordinarily Wing would have disposed of the vehicle already but due to the representations made by XXX it was agreed to offer her additional time but the vehicle cannot be stored indefinitely. XXX has been advised to contact either ourselves or Wing to make a suitable arrangement to clear all of the outstanding issues in relation to this vehicle. Once an arrangement is in place we will try to return the vehicle to XXX provided it can be done in way that does not breach local rules.

Just to point out that I didn’t complain about the Wing Parking Officer either to the Council or Wing Parking, only what I posted on this forum so I have no idea what they’re talking about.

Any advice on what I should do now?

[hcandersen]

Unfortunately, this vehicle has repeatedly been parking on our estates in breach of the terms of the local Estate Controlled Parking Scheme. In addition to the current action this vehicle has received several parking tickets for failing to park in accordance with the local parking rules, some of which remain unpaid.

Interesting backstory of which we were unaware!

Anyway, what did you write to the council?

[lashes1984]

Literally word for word what you posted #22 filling in the gaps. Sent to the Council, with Homes for Haringey, Wing Parking and my local Councillor copied in.

There is no backstory, if you look at #13 and your reply #14, apparently there are 3 PPC’s outstanding, I’ve sent a SAR to Wing to request more information but still no response. The only thing I was told on the phone that they were windscreen PPCs from 2016/2017, they haven’t contacted DVLA to request keeper details so that a Notice to Keeper can be served as per POFA 2012.

My vehicle has always displayed a permit since it’s introduction in 2016 and is actually stuck to the windscreen so no danger of falling off the dashboard.

This post has been edited by lashes1984: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 16:15

[lashes1984]

Happy New Year!

Would appreciate some help with this issue.

LB Haringey are looking into this by way of the complaints procedure, it’s at Stage 2. Apparently Stage 1 was Homes for Haringey considering my complaint as an appeal and following the appeal procedure in relation to Abandoned Vehicles. I have asked for a copy of this procedure and was told there wasn’t a written copy I could have.

I accept I was in breach of my tenancy. In my defence I only ever had a copy of the introductory tenancy which didn’t have the full terms and conditions. Have now got a copy.

I did ask Homes for Haringey if they would consider exercising discretion and waive all or some of storage fees and here is the response I got:

The outstanding balance relating to enforcement action taken against vehicle XXXXXXX is currently £5910.00 (as outlined in the tables below my email signature). The balance relates to 3 x unpaid Parking Charge notices, the abandoned vehicle removal fee and abandoned vehicle storage fees.

Wing have considered your request to waive the storage fees but they have indicated that they cannot do this but they are prepared to offer a discounted daily storage fee of £5 per day instead of the normal £30.

As a result of Wing’s offer the storage fee reduces to £885.00 from £5,310.00 with the outstanding balance reduced to £1,485.00. However, Wing have also agreed to accept both a full and final settlement of £1,400.00 and payment by instalment as outlined below. On payment of the initial deposit of £700 your vehicle will be returned to you at a location which is not in breach of local parking rules. You will then be expected to make 4 monthly payments of £175 each.

So a couple of things I’d appreciate some help with:
1. I didn’t know about the unpaid PPCs and I have made a SAR to Wing to get more info. But are they entitled to request these sums even though that wasn’t the reason for my vehicle being removed.
2. The Council have remained silent on the matter thus far and let Homes for Haringey to respond, but are the Council/Housing/Wing entitled to consider a vehicle abandoned just because it is SORN and subsequently remove?
3. The Warning Notice that Wing allegedly place on my vehicle was done @ 7:11, outside of normal enforcement hours - is this allowed/is the Notice still valid?
4. The Council didn’t remove my vehicle or place the Notice. It was Wing Parking. Homes for Haringey have said that Wing Parking remove Abandoned Vehicles on Council Estates only and not on the highway, only NSL can remove from the highway and they can’t remove from council estate land, which is why they contract Wing Parking. Does anyone if this is the norm for other councils. Reason I ask is that we had a vehicle with a wheel missing and left in a parking space last month and a neighbour called the council who came and removed it.
5. Last question, is there a time limit when they must dispose of a vehicle. I was told it was liable back in August but when I contacted them in October it was still there and even now they keep saying they can dispose of it but it doesn’t seem like they’re in a hurry (not that I want them to).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

This post has been edited by lashes1984: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:24

[cp8759]

I suggest you post up all the correspondence you've received from the council.

[lashes1984]

Just to update my vehicle is now being returned without charge.

Thanks to all who responded and provided advice.

https://imgur.com/user/lashes1984

This post has been edited by lashes1984: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 15:45