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PCN sent to wrong address!
user1243
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:12
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I recently received a Charge Certificate for a contravention that occured on 10th January (turning right at a no right turn). I do not contest this mistake however the notice was sent to the wrong address. I moved from the address to which the PCN was sent in July 2017, and updated my details with the DVLA (requesting a new driving licence) immediately. I have since moved again (as I rent) to another address (actually on the day of the contravention) and have again since updated details with DVLA. I therefore did not recieve the charge certificates (and subsequent letters which were sent to an address I moved out of over 8 months ago) until this was passed on by the old landlord. Despite my protestations to the council they are now saying this is a matter to go to court as the address they have sent the charge notices to has been provided by the DVLA.

I've contacted DVLA who say they do not keep a record of past addresses, and I no longer have my old driving licence as this was sent back to the DVLA as requested. So, apart from my record of applying for a new licence with DVLA (which I have on email), and other information like council tax bills, I have no other evidence to provide to support my case. Has anyone come across anything like this before or can offer any words of advice? Am happy to pay the fine (at £65) but not the £195 out of principle - they didn't even give me a chance to do so. Thanks in advance for any help.


This post has been edited by user1243: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:47
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post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:12
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peterguk
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:14
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QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:12) *
I moved from the address to which the PCN was sent in July 2017, and updated my details with the DVLA (requesting a new driving licence) immediately. I have since moved again (as I rent) to another address (actually on the day of the contravention) and have again since updated details with DVLA.


Did you update your V5C (vehicle registration document) as well ass your DL?

It is the address on your V5C that is used for PCNs, not the address on your DL.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:15


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user1243
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:18
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Thanks for response. I didn't update my V5C - wasn't aware you had to do this regarding addresses, only vehicle modifications. Does this mean I've got no case to challenge for reduction?
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mdann52
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:01
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QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:18) *
Thanks for response. I didn't update my V5C - wasn't aware you had to do this regarding addresses, only vehicle modifications. Does this mean I've got no case to challenge for reduction?

Unless the council have messed up somewhere along the way (which is more likely than you might think!), then unfortunately not.
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Neil B
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:04
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QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:18) *
Thanks for response. I didn't update my V5C - wasn't aware you had to do this regarding addresses,

I suggest you get on with it then.

Have you formally notified the Council of your current address, in writing, for service of further documents
relating to this PCN?

QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:18) *
Does this mean I've got no case to challenge for reduction?

No; it isn't your last chance. It can be sorted but you might have to be quick.


QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:12) *
recently received a Charge Certificate

Gi's a clue? Does it have a date?
QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:12) *
the council

And another clue please?



QUOTE (mdann52 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:01) *
QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:18) *
Thanks for response. I didn't update my V5C - wasn't aware you had to do this regarding addresses, only vehicle modifications. Does this mean I've got no case to challenge for reduction?

Unless the council have messed up somewhere along the way (which is more likely than you might think!), then unfortunately not.

Please don't misinform.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:10


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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user1243
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:47
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Thanks Neil B. I have formally notified the council (Southwark) and have since received further communications. They have reduced it from 195 to 130 but most recent letter says that I have 7 days to pay this before they send an order for recovery form and the case will then be referred to Northampton County Court. The original PCN was dated 17th January (10 days after contravention). The charge certificate was issued on 22nd February.
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Neil B
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 22:20
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QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:47) *
Thanks Neil B. I have formally notified the council (Southwark) and have since received further communications. They have reduced it from 195 to 130 but most recent letter says that I have 7 days to pay this before they send an order for recovery form and the case will then be referred to Northampton County Court. The original PCN was dated 17th January (10 days after contravention). The charge certificate was issued on 22nd February.

Ok.
Well the good news is that the debt isn't registered yet so you will have plenty of time to remedy that when it is.
Normal procedure is to wait for that, Council issue an Order for Recovery and you can get it reset to PCN £65/130 automatically.

But contact with Southwark has confused the matter. Good that you've appraised them of current address.
But -
QUOTE (user1243 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 21:47) *
and have since received further communications. They have reduced it from 195 to 130

To your current address?
Show us these.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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user1243
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 11:44
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See attached for most recent letters received. Two pdf's of letters included in zip file attached.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Archive.zip ( 1.17MB ) Number of downloads: 47
 
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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:08
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QUOTE (user1243 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 11:44) *
See attached for most recent letters received. Two pdf's of letters included in zip file attached.

The letter admits a flaw in the PCN, it states the original PCN gave you 21 days to pay the discounted amount, rather than the 14 days required by law. If you can get the PCN reset, this is a procedural impropriety that can win the day and get it cancelled, but it will have to be taken to the London Tribunals.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Neil B
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:47
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:08) *
QUOTE (user1243 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 11:44) *
See attached for most recent letters received. Two pdf's of letters included in zip file attached.

The letter admits a flaw in the PCN, it states the original PCN gave you 21 days to pay the discounted amount, rather than the 14 days required by law. If you can get the PCN reset, this is a procedural impropriety that can win the day and get it cancelled, but it will have to be taken to the London Tribunals.

If? It will be automatic.

Slight issue; Southwark mtc PCNs don't offer 21 days. Them saying that now is a bit confusing I suppose.

They are flawed in other ways though: Strongest example of statement re Charge Cert issue iirc.



and the letters themselves are arguable.

Out of process, recognising non-receipt of PCN and demanding full whack payment in 'made up' timescales.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:53
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:47) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:08) *
QUOTE (user1243 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 11:44) *
See attached for most recent letters received. Two pdf's of letters included in zip file attached.

The letter admits a flaw in the PCN, it states the original PCN gave you 21 days to pay the discounted amount, rather than the 14 days required by law. If you can get the PCN reset, this is a procedural impropriety that can win the day and get it cancelled, but it will have to be taken to the London Tribunals.

If? It will be automatic.

If the OP follows the process, yes.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:47) *
Slight issue; Southwark mtc PCNs don't offer 21 days. Them saying that now is a bit confusing I suppose.

Still, the OP hasn't seen the PCN so it's reasonable to raise that as an issue, they are in any event likely to mess up the response.


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user1243
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 13:49
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Thanks both for your responses. Apologies, I'm not particularly familiar with the terminology or processes you're referring to here. Is it your view that there was something incorrect about the process that was followed, and that if taken to court there is an opportunity to have the PCN reset to £65 (or rescinded)?
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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 14:07
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QUOTE (user1243 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 13:49) *
Thanks both for your responses. Apologies, I'm not particularly familiar with the terminology or processes you're referring to here. Is it your view that there was something incorrect about the process that was followed, and that if taken to court there is an opportunity to have the PCN reset to £65 (or rescinded)?

As Neil B has suggested, you need to wait for the Order for Recovery, once this happens you can get the case reset. We can then look at following the appeal route to get the PCN cancelled, as the council have made a bit of a mess of this one, but let's take it one step at a time. The next step is to wait for the Order for Recovery and then post on here as soon as you get it, so we can advise on the next steps.


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Neil B
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 19:07
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:53) *
they are in any event likely to mess up the response.

Agreed.


QUOTE (user1243 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 13:49) *
Apologies, I'm not particularly familiar with the terminology or processes you're referring to here.

No need to apologise. Most of it is us talking amongst ourselves. We'll explain when needed.


QUOTE (user1243 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 13:49) *
Is it your view that there was something incorrect about the process that was followed, and that if taken to court there is an opportunity to have the PCN reset to £65 (or rescinded)?

cp has explained there are two steps.

I'll just add that you might be worrying too much about the term 'Court'. The debt will be 'registered' with the Traffic Enforcement Centre;
just a big processing centre with the powers of a Court. There is nothing like an appearance in Court to worry about.

The reset process, when the OfR arrives, is a simple matter of ticking a box, getting a form 'sworn/witnessed' and signing.
This is free at your local County Court (by appointment). Again, nothing to worry about: It is normally done over the
counter. Last time I went it wasn't much different to going through a supermarket checkout.

Just one important thing.
If you haven't received the OfR in a couple of weeks, come back and tell us.

Also tell us if you do get it of course


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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