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Car Towed but parking signs confusing, Harigey council - Code 02
PigeonHB
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 21:04
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Water works have been going on in the area for weeks. Parking restrictions on the road have been placed in multiple phases. I Parked on the street at night, lots of other cars also parked on the road so signs were very unclear. Checked sign that was propped up against a wall which gave information on phases 1-3 and indicated the road currently parked on was fine. Woke next morning and car was gone 8.45am ish. Noticed the "no parking sign" and public notice underneath which covered what is now phase 6, which started on the day i was towed. My car was not obstructing anything as work had not started and did not start until 24 hours later.

Working out what part of the street is ok to park in and which aren't has been a nightmare, but I have been so careful. I'm so annoyed that a sign from another part of the road had been moved to the road i was on (and was still there up until the 4th of September). The PCN pictures are misleading as the van I parked behind at 10pm the night before had been moved or towed, which makes the rightly worded public notice look like its right in front of my car. This charge feels so unjust, I hope i can appeal.

Please see pictures of the original PCN notice (which i didn't see as the car was immediately towed). The pictures taken by the traffic warden and the pictures I have taken of the road and incorrect sign (11 images in total).

Any help hugely appreciated wub.gif ;

https://imageshack.com/i/pnr35Wr1j
https://imageshack.com/i/plZSGhoqj
https://imageshack.com/i/pnpXWcmxj
https://imageshack.com/i/plipNGS9j
https://imageshack.com/i/plifsMdWj
https://imageshack.com/i/pmjbYkYdj
https://imageshack.com/i/poPowXAPj
https://imageshack.com/i/pnq8QmEnj
https://imageshack.com/i/plvRuAzFj
https://imageshack.com/i/pnI4Er5Vj




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post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 21:04
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Incandescent
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 22:33
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I have to say I'm not entirely clear from your narrative what went on. You have posted a lot of photos and the PCN, (good !), but I'm still not clear what signs were in place at the location you parked-up. You seem to be saying that there was a sign that was not applicable to the date you parked and the following day, and somehow another sign was moved into its place that did apply to where you were, Is that correct ?

Anyway, presumably your van was removed to the pound and you had to pay £265 to get it back; is this the case or did they just move it somewhere else ?
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PigeonHB
post Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 14:29
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Hi Incadescent, thanks for your response.

My car was towed and taken to the pound - i had to pay £265 in total to get it back.
Sorry I couldn't get the photos to show up in any sensible order. There was a "no loading" sign on the lampost i parked next to, underneath that there is a public notice that states i couldn't park there on the 2nd of September. However when i parked there at night, this sign was not visible due to the van that was parked in-front of the lampost and in-front of my car.

After parking, and given all the work that is taking place on the road at various times, I checked the sign that was on the side leaning against a wall. This sign did not refer to the particular stretch of the road i was on at all which led me to think i was safe to park where i did. There was no other "no loading or public notice" signs visible for the rest of the stretch of this road (you will see this in the pictures which show the red post box) it's probably about 50-60 meter stretch of road. So in missing the sign immediately next to my car due to poor visibility, and only walking past a sign that someone had removed from another stretch of the road and incorrectly placing there. I parked in a space they wanted to clear for the next phase of there works (which are delayed and did not start until another 2 days after my car was towed).

I hope that explains things a little clearer, please let me know if any parts of this are still confusing.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 17:07
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The suspension sign does not cover the date of the contravention. We need to see a better photo of the TRO Notice.

Mick


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Incandescent
post Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 18:47
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 18:07) *
The suspension sign does not cover the date of the contravention. We need to see a better photo of the TRO Notice.

Mick

Also as the car was towed and £265 paid, it is now a no-brainer to take them all the way to adjudication because they seem to have been a bit unorganised with their sign placements. OP, you have already paid all there is to pay, hence it is a no-brainer and could get all or some of that £265 back. We can help prepare your reps to the council and then your appeal to the adjudicators.
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cp8759
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 20:09
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We need a readable photo of the notice, this looks like the relevant one http://imageshack.com/i/plifsMdWj but we need to see what the plasticised sheet at the bottom says.


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PigeonHB
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 19:10
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Thanks Mick - is this one any good?



The form i need to fill in to appeal is paper based and requires me to tick one of 7 possible reasons for appealing. Is this normal? As it seems quite restrictive.

Thanks again for everyone's help to date with this.

Kerry
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cp8759
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 23:47
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The grounds of appeal are set by statute but it is likely to come down to "the alleged contravention did not occur". To be honest, I'm always sceptical about whether the supposed temporary order exists where the notice does not give the name of the order; I've made a FOI request to find out.

Also for this sort of temporary restrictions, the council must jump through various hoops, listed here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/12...gulation/3/made

If they've not followed the procedure correctly, the order is invalid meaning that the alleged contravention did not occur.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 10:01


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PigeonHB
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 18:40
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Thanks for this cp8759 - i couldn't see any obvious breaches in the regulation surrounding a temporary order other than the maximum duration had expired on the earlier part of the road yet it was still restricted parking. I don't think this will help my case as it's not the stretch of road that i parked on when fined - but not having access to this stretch of road was the reason I mistakenly parked in another patch of road that had became restricted.

If i tick the "the alleged contravention did not occur" - could you advise on what rationale i should provide please?
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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 11:57
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Well I'm assuming you recovered your car on 2 September, so you must submit something by 29 September 2019. I very much doubt we'll get a copy of the order before then, but here's a few ideas:

-------------

Dear London Borough of Haringey,

Water works have been going on in the area for weeks. Parking restrictions on the road have been placed in multiple phases. I parked on the street at night, lots of other cars were also parked on the road and the signs were very unclear. I checked sign that was propped up against a wall which gave information on phases 1-3, this sign indicated the road were I was currently parked on was not currently subject to any restrictions. The next morning at around 8.45 am the car was gone. I noticed the "no parking sign" and public notice underneath which covered what is now phase 6, which started on the day i was towed. My car was not obstructing anything as work had not started and did not start until 24 hours later.

Working out what part of the street is ok to park in and which aren't has been a nightmare, but I have been so careful. I'm so annoyed that a sign from another part of the road had been moved to the road i was on (and was still there up until the 4th of September). The PCN pictures are misleading as the van I parked behind at 10pm the night before had been moved or towed, which makes the correctly worded public notice look like its right in front of my car.

For all of these reasons the alleged contravention did not occur. However should the council reject my representations, the council is invited to supply evidence that it has complied with regulation 3 of The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992 and in particular the council is invited to supply:

1) Evidence that the traffic authority published notice of its intention to make the order in one or more newspapers circulating in the area
2) Evidence that the traffic authority gave notice to The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis
3) Evidence that the traffic authority gave notice to the London Fire Commissioner
4) Evidence that the traffic authority within 14 days after making the order published a notice of the making of the order in one or more newspapers circulating in the area

I put it to you that failure to supply the above would show that the restriction had not been lawfully imposed and therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.


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PigeonHB
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 08:20
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Thank you so much for your help. I sent this off on Saturday. Hopefully it will end with good news.
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cp8759
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 12:34
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QUOTE (PigeonHB @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 09:20) *
Thank you so much for your help. I sent this off on Saturday. Hopefully it will end with good news.

Ii very much doubt that but post the rejection letter in full when you get it.


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cp8759
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 19:49
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For reference:

The Haringey (Albert Road) (Temporary Prohibition And Restriction Of Traffic) Order 2019 http://bit.ly/32PKMCM

The Haringey (Harringay Road) (Temporary Restriction Of Traffic) Order 2019 http://bit.ly/2BxXZUT


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