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driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, DVLA revoked licence without informing me
xone
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 10:51
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Hello all.

Please help, I've had my car impounded for the second time this weekend. To explain. I drive a taxi for a living, I had a minor altercation with the police about me parking/picking up a fare and they are reporting me for obstruction of a carriageway, I'm not fussed about this at the moment as what happend next took me completely by surprise. The police do their usual checks and it turns out that the police national computer reckons I had not renewed my licence after a ban nearly 8 years ago. I only had a motorcycle entitlement then and have since passed my car entitlement driving test which you have to provide the examiner a valid licence, anyway, the car gets seized.

Saturday Comes around and I go to the police station with my current licence and insurance which turns out to be valid and I get the car back after paying £150 for the release. I asked the chap behind the police station desk to double check that my licence was valid and had not expired, he confirmed and said I'd not be able to get the car back without one.

So, Saturday night turns up and I go out to work in my car/taxi and 20 mins into the shift I'm pulled again and now I'm told the points I recieved last night have been totted up and I'm currently on a ban, no fixed penalty and no court ruling so how is this??!! Traffic turns up and gives me the run down as the car is being impounded again, Aparently now my licence was revoked this year in March on the 9th!! I'm to contact DVLA on Monday and sort it out, I put it to him that at the police station today I'd asked if my licence was a fully valid and legal uk driving licence and I was told that yes it was, twice, I also put it to him that I was stopped a month before for sounding my horn after 11pm and again the usual checks were carried out and there was no revoked or expired licence. Traffic cop says computer says no! So now I'm really confused and scared as my mortage won't be paid soon enough!!

I must point out that in March I had some points endorsed to my licence which I had recieved back, I was told via a letter that if I didn't send the licence that the licence would be revoked but I did send the licence and I did recieve it back with the endorsment. Could it be possible that DVLA recieved my licence but it had been delayed in the post and they decided to revoke it. I've not had any letters form DVLA telling me that the licence has expired or that the licence had been revoked!!

Can anyone suggest anything??

This post has been edited by xone: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:04
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post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 10:51
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andy_foster
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:49
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Trying to get my head around the 'facts' of the case...

Stopped by police on Friday who did a check and found that you did not hold a current car driving licence.

8 years ago(ish) you received a ban of 56 days or longer and did not reapply for your licence.
You subsequently passed your car test.
The fact that the examiner examined your licence is in itself neither here nor there, but to have a physical licence to show the examiner, you must have either failed to surrender your licence when you were banned, had a 'duplicate', or reapplied subsequent to the ban. Can you shed any light?
Did you send off your test past certificate and your licence to have the car entitlement added? Or have you somehow managed to find work as a taxi driver without showing a licence to drive a car?

On Saturday, the police (front desk civvy) confirm that your licence is valid.
What had changed between your car being impounded because you did not hold a valid licence, and your licence being valid on Saturday?

What you have told us about what you were told on Saturday night is pure gibberish. That is not to say that you necessarily have not conveyed to us what was told to you.
You cannot have received a totting up ban in respect of points received on Friday night. Only a court can impose a totting up ban, and you would be required to attend a hearing if they were considering banning you (although they can ban you in your absence if you fail to attend). They do not sit on Saturdays, and even if they did, the wheels of justice do not grind that quickly.

If your licence was revoked in March because the DVLA believed that you had not surrendered it for endorsement, you would be legally entitled to drive for 12 months without a licence, as long as you are not also banned.


The police were correct on one point - you need to contact the DVLA first thing Monday morning and sort out what they think the state of your licence is. That will not necessarily resolve anything, but it gives you the starting point you need.



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desktop_demon
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:59
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It would not be the first time that the Police National Computer database was holding incorrect data. Of course the obvious advice is wait until tomorrow and phone the DVLA to find out what the DVLA's records say. It does seem a strange sequence of events. As AF says above there does seem to be some confusion of the facts.

What it the points history of the OP's licence? I mean what points have been added to it and when. Maybe there was a totting up ban in force - but that would be a rare thing without the OP being informed. Or maybe there was a mistake made by the BiB typing in the details on the original presentation. Difficult to say on current information.

In general only a court of law can revoke a licence or issue points that might cause a licence to be revoked. So there must be an "audit trail" of points and judgements that either prove the mistake or prove the loss of licence. The DVLA (as far as I know) cannot just decide to revoke a licence itself without a court order.

As an "aside", it would be interesting to know what remedy might exist to this "mischief" of the BiB impounding a car for no real reason. The law seems to say that the car can be impounded if the BiB just suspect a licence does not cover the driver/vehicle. So when subsequently found to be wrong the BiB are still covered against a claim becuase they "did suspect" and that would seem to be all the law requires.

At the rate things are going in the UK, I wait for the time when the BiB can deploy Predator drones to catch the guilty. Just think of the savings in cost, time and court process! sad.gif

This post has been edited by desktop_demon: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 12:06


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Hotel Oscar 87
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 12:41
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QUOTE (desktop_demon @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:59) *
In general only a court of law can revoke a licence or issue points that might cause a licence to be revoked. So there must be an "audit trail" of points and judgements that either prove the mistake or prove the loss of licence. The DVLA (as far as I know) cannot just decide to revoke a licence itself without a court order.


Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995?
Failure to surrender licence?
Medical conditions?



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xone
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 13:05
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:49) *
Trying to get my head around the 'facts' of the case...

Stopped by police on Friday who did a check and found that you did not hold a current car driving licence.

8 years ago(ish) you received a ban of 56 days or longer and did not reapply for your licence.
You subsequently passed your car test.
The fact that the examiner examined your licence is in itself neither here nor there, but to have a physical licence to show the examiner, you must have either failed to surrender your licence when you were banned, had a 'duplicate', or reapplied subsequent to the ban. Can you shed any light?
Did you send off your test past certificate and your licence to have the car entitlement added? Or have you somehow managed to find work as a taxi driver without showing a licence to drive a car?


As far as I can remember I had to apply for a new licence, I've also had apply for a duplicate licence since then last time being on the 01/05/08 so DVLA have had my licence back a number of times. I'm currently on licence issue 27.

It's impossible to work as a hackney licenced driver without production of your UK/EU driving licence to the local authority, I'm British so have a current UK licence. See local government miscellaneous provisions act and it's also part of the local governments bylaws. They also check weather the licence is valid and how many points are currently on the licence, They also ask for any and all points you've recieved over the period of the licence.


QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:49) *
On Saturday, the police (front desk civvy) confirm that your licence is valid.
What had changed between your car being impounded because you did not hold a valid licence, and your licence being valid on Saturday?


As far as I know nothing had changed, I should be more precise with the time though. The car was siezed at 03:15 on Saturday 7/11/09 and I got the car back at 11:45 on Saturday 7/11/09. The front desk was indeed a civvy and I asked him on 2 seperate ocasions weather the licence was valid and both times he confirmed.



QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:49) *
What you have told us about what you were told on Saturday night is pure gibberish. That is not to say that you necessarily have not conveyed to us what was told to you.
You cannot have received a totting up ban in respect of points received on Friday night. Only a court can impose a totting up ban, and you would be required to attend a hearing if they were considering banning you (although they can ban you in your absence if you fail to attend). They do not sit on Saturdays, and even if they did, the wheels of justice do not grind that quickly.


I was told by a normal police officer that due to my actions in the very early hours on Saturday morning, driving otherwise than in accordance, that I had incurred further points on my licence. As you've pointed out, I also knew, and relayed to the normal police officer, that I'd not recieved any fix penalty notice and nor had I attended court for the issue of any endorsments. Nothing further was said on this matter. What happened next was a traffic officer turned up, as is the case when cars are seized, he did further checks to see what the actual issue was with my licence and he told me that DVLA had revoked my licence in March on the 9th 2009, this is the exact same day that I have to renew my hacnkey drivers licence with the council and nothing was mentioned then by the council. Furthermore, it's a differing story than the one I was given at 03:15 the same day. I asked the traffic officer what he thought of the fact that I'd got my car back with the licence that he was also seizing and he said that the civvy must have used a different database than the one he use's. I asked if there is more than one database on the PNC and he reply no, I said so how is it I manage to release my car then. He shrugged and said I'm to contact DVLA.

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:49) *
If your licence was revoked in March because the DVLA believed that you had not surrendered it for endorsement, you would be legally entitled to drive for 12 months without a licence, as long as you are not also banned.


As far as I know I'm not currently banned, I've not recieved anything to suggest that I am and if I was I'd have been arrested at the roadside yesterday, twice. Driving whiles disqualified can incurr a prision sentence. I've kept a clean licence since 2004 until this year. I've had 6 points added due to a failure to provide evidence, this was judged in January this year, it was then sent to appeal which I failed and thus DVLA asked for my licence. If there was an expired licence or a ban then surley this would have been noticed by DVLA prior to the issue of points, something would have been mentioned in court and my local council certianly would not have issued me with a hackney drivers licence.



QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 11:49) *
The police were correct on one point - you need to contact the DVLA first thing Monday morning and sort out what they think the state of your licence is. That will not necessarily resolve anything, but it gives you the starting point you need.


Indeed, something I'm not looking forward to.
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xone
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 15:14
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I've just had a horrible thought. My current licence was last renewd on 01/05/08, I had 6 points added to thes licence in March do you think I may have had my licence revoked because someone thinks I've only been driving for one year and three months and has made a mistake, or is there a new law that allows you to only get 6 points on your licence from the last renewed date? I've actuall had my licence since 2001.

Any thoughts?
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P91
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 15:30
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QUOTE (xone @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 15:14) *
I had 6 points added to thes licence in March do you think I may have had my licence revoked because someone thinks I've only been driving for one year and three months and has made a mistake


I may have missed this in one of your posts but when exactly did you pass your car test?
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andy_foster
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 15:58
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QUOTE (xone @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 15:14) *
I've just had a horrible thought. My current licence was last renewd on 01/05/08, I had 6 points added to thes licence in March do you think I may have had my licence revoked because someone thinks I've only been driving for one year and three months and has made a mistake, or is there a new law that allows you to only get 6 points on your licence from the last renewed date? I've actuall had my licence since 2001.


The New Drivers Act revocation only applies to offences committed within 2 years after first obtaining a full UK licence.
There is no law that allows them to revoke your licence for getting 6 points in any other circumstances.

However, you will not be surprised to hear that the DVLA are capable of unlimited incompetence.


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"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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xone
post Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 16:11
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QUOTE (P91 @ Sun, 8 Nov 2009 - 15:30) *
I may have missed this in one of your posts but when exactly did you pass your car test?


I passed my car test on 24/08/04 at 14:30. I have kept my driving test report because I was really pleased when I passed.
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xone
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 08:31
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Just been on to DVLA. Apparently DVLA have revoked my licence because I've not sent it to DVLA for endorsments. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I'd sent the licence to DVLA, who have no record of this, to have the endorsments added to the licence. Now here's a trick. The endorsments were added in biro and not printed on to the licnece. DVLA confirmed to me that they print the endorsments on to the licence and it is the courts that write endorsments onto licence's. So how this turn of events has come about I don't know because DVLA had sent me a letter asking for my licence, it wasn't east cornwall magistraigtes court. DVLA endorsed my licence and DVLA sent it back failing to record the endorsment. DVLA also reckon they sent me three letters as is the norm and then the court revoked the licence, I recieved one letter to which I sent off my licence. At no point was I told the licence was going to be or has been revoked. Also DVLA say they didn't ask for the licence but require to see it with endorsments so they can lift the revocation. This is going to be hard as Thames valley police still have it!! Does anyone know who can be held accountable for this as DVLA confirmed that I'm allowed 12 months to drive on a revoked licence and I've now had my car impounded twice and I've been reported for driving otherwise than in accordance!!
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oldstoat
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 09:29
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What may be helpful for us and yourself is to write the events out in chronological order. As i admit to becoming confused

ie 1.x.08 received NIP

2.x.08 went to court

3.x.08 received points

4.x.08 sent off licence etc

also suggest it might be an idea to consult a solicitor as this appears to be a complicated matter


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andy_foster
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 09:45
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Are you sure that the DVLA told you that the court revoked your licence after they sent you letters about it not being endorsed?


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xone
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 13:07
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 09:45) *
Are you sure that the DVLA told you that the court revoked your licence after they sent you letters about it not being endorsed?


DVLA's words were that they had not recieved my licence so they could endorse it with the 6 points I got for failure to provide evidence of a driver. The court then asked to revoke the licence. I asked if they have any record of them recieveing the licence and they said no. I pointed out that I have the points on the licence after sending it to DVLA at thier request earlier this year. I told them that the points were witten in biro and not printed onto the licnece. DVLA reckon that they only print endorsments on to licnece's and never write them on. I also asked them why I had not had any letters or any other corrorspondance from them regarding the revoking of my licence and they had said I should have recieved 3 letters warning my of this. I'm guessing I didn't get the letters because I sent the licence to have it endorsed and that someone has forgotten to update the system. Currently they aren't accepting responsability and have requested the licence to see the points. Currently Thames vally police won't give me the licence as it's being used a evidence. So that should be an interesting one once it gets to court. I either have to reapply for a new licence at a cost of £20 or send them the one that the police have got. I have to wait till tomorrow to find out weather I can get my licence back.

Has anyone got any suggestions about what to do if I'm stopped again, I can imagine they will try to take the car again. DVLA confirm that I'm allowed to drive and as is the case being a cab driver you need insurance etc which is all in order and has been wittnes now twice at the police station when I went to reclaim my car.

This post has been edited by xone: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 13:08
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andy_foster
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 13:31
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Basically, you have 2 agencies of the executive, who are able to exercise powers with limited scope for appeal against incorrect decisions, and utterly incompetent procedures.

Many people have been tempted to bury their heads in the sand, on the basis that a government agency (or more than one) has caused this mess, and that they can then clean it up.

I'd suggest speaking to TVP again, explaining that the DVLA want to see your licence, and assuming that they won't give it back, asking for any contact and reference numbers that would enable the DVLA to confirm with TVP what is on your licence.

I'd then speak to the DVLA again, hopefully get them to contact TVP to resolve that part of the issue, and ask them to send another revocation notice (despite the fact that the original was probably never sent, and probably never existed) and/or something on DVLA headed paper that confirms that you are legally allowed to drive. Also ask for a written copy of the information they provided you with previously.
Basically, the revocation notice should have acted as a 'receipt' for your licence.

When dealing with potentially incompetent or dishonest organisations, as a minimum always take the name of the person you spoke to, and make a contemporaneous note of the key points of the conversation. Recording the call is even better. Always send any post by at least recorded delivery.

It would probably be a good idea to print out a copy of s. 88 RTA 1988 and keep it in the car.
That is the authority that you can drive for 12 months after having your licence revoked by the DVLA under s. 99 RTA 1988.


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xone
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 14:38
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 13:31) *
Basically, you have 2 agencies of the executive, who are able to exercise powers with limited scope for appeal against incorrect decisions, and utterly incompetent procedures.

Many people have been tempted to bury their heads in the sand, on the basis that a government agency (or more than one) has caused this mess, and that they can then clean it up.

I'd suggest speaking to TVP again, explaining that the DVLA want to see your licence, and assuming that they won't give it back, asking for any contact and reference numbers that would enable the DVLA to confirm with TVP what is on your licence.

I'd then speak to the DVLA again, hopefully get them to contact TVP to resolve that part of the issue, and ask them to send another revocation notice (despite the fact that the original was probably never sent, and probably never existed) and/or something on DVLA headed paper that confirms that you are legally allowed to drive. Also ask for a written copy of the information they provided you with previously.
Basically, the revocation notice should have acted as a 'receipt' for your licence.

When dealing with potentially incompetent or dishonest organisations, as a minimum always take the name of the person you spoke to, and make a contemporaneous note of the key points of the conversation. Recording the call is even better. Always send any post by at least recorded delivery.

It would probably be a good idea to print out a copy of s. 88 RTA 1988 and keep it in the car.
That is the authority that you can drive for 12 months after having your licence revoked by the DVLA under s. 99 RTA 1988.


Brilliant, I've just been on to DVLA again and I've got them to send me a letter covering this. The chap I spoke to reckoned I can fax in my current licence with a covering letter and hopefully that should put a stop to this mess. And also he did admit that DVLA do, at times, write in biro on the licence's and not just the courts.
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Landshark
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 15:54
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Did the DVLA confirm that your licence was revoked rather than expired???

The PNC database does not show the status of a driving licence, this is held on the DVLA database which the police have access to. I would also question whether the counter staff at the police station actually checked against the database or just look at the expiry date on it!!!!! huh.gif

However, if it was only revoked in March this year then you , as has been pointed out, drive for up to 12 months!!

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xone
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 17:40
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QUOTE (Landshark @ Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 15:54) *
Did the DVLA confirm that your licence was revoked rather than expired???

The PNC database does not show the status of a driving licence, this is held on the DVLA database which the police have access to. I would also question whether the counter staff at the police station actually checked against the database or just look at the expiry date on it!!!!! huh.gif

However, if it was only revoked in March this year then you , as has been pointed out, drive for up to 12 months!!



DVLA confirmed 3 times today that the licence was revoked.

It's a shame that the police can't use common sense anymore and have used the DVLA database as this may have saved me having my car seized twice this weekend.

Thank god for section 88 RTA 1988.

Looking at the brighter side of this situation, Had I not been pulled I may well have continued to drive unknowing that my licence was revoked and thus after March next year I'd have a useless licence and the situation would have been a lot worse.
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andy_foster
post Mon, 9 Nov 2009 - 19:09
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Not that much worse.

Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence is not endorseable if you are entitled to hold an appropriate licence, and it would be unlikely to invalidate your insurance (usually the requirement is either to hold, or have held and not be disqualified from holding).


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xone
post Tue, 10 Nov 2009 - 11:20
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Well now I've got a problem. Just been in touch with the police to see if I can get back my licence and they have said that there is an issue with my licence, they don't reckon I have one basicly! And will more than likley seize the cab if they see, I need to work but what I don't want to do is have the cab seized again beuase some snotty copper has it in for me. This is after I've pointed out that DVLA confrim I'm allowed to drive 3 times yesterday and that the RTA is on my side.

Can anyone reccomend what to do?
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andy_foster
post Tue, 10 Nov 2009 - 11:29
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Did you take the name of the person you spoke to?
What was the issue with your licence? Why do they think that you don't have one?


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