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National Parking Enforcement - Paid but still got PCN?
castlepark
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 15:13
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Dear all,

Quick summary...

The reg number on a ticket machine was entered in a private car park and a pound was put in the meter. The pound was accepted and a ticket dispensed which was clearly displayed on the windscreen.

10 days later a PCN was received as the registered keeper on an NTK letter stating that the reason for issue was... 'Driver Failed to Correctly Use Pay & Display Machine". Unfortunately, because there was no reason to think there would be a problem in the future the ticket was thrown away.

An initial first appeal has been sent (without naming the driver) stating that payment was made and a ticket received and displayed on the windscreen and that as payment was made a claim could not be made against the keeper under PoFA because Schedule 4 Subsection (1) and (2) of PoFA only refers to UNPAID parking charges.

The appeal was rejected with the reason being that the registration was not recorded by the ticket machine. The reg was definitely entered before putting the pound in the machine. Whether the reg should have been entered after putting the pound in I don't know? The necessary signage on the actual pay machine instructions are very hard to read at night due to poor light. Maybe the reg wasn't entered at the correct time but payment was definitely received and a ticket issued. Surely payment would have been recorded by the machine at the time which would verify payment?

If payment hadn't been received I could understand it but as the correct money was paid this is very annoying! Unfortunately, there is no evidence to support the case other than a man in a nearby chip shop who provided the pound change for the machine.

I have read several threads on NPE and it seems that a further appeal to the IAS is a waste of time but would be very grateful for any advice on anything else I should or shouldn't do?

Many thanks







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post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 15:13
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 15:26
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Nothign further to do. You could write back ad state that the VRM was correcty entered, however it is possible their machine may have incorrectly recorded an input. They should check with their records, and provide a full, unredacted of ALL VRMs recorded that day whcih do not show a corresponding payment, and ALL VRMs where there was a payment but not vehcile within the site. They will find theer is a match

See what others think. Dont jump in and immedaitely correspond.
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castlepark
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 16:10
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Many thanks,

Appreciate your advice. Yes, I did state that the correct VRM was entered in my initial appeal and yes it is possible their machine is at fault.

"They should check with their records, and provide a full, unredacted of ALL VRMs recorded that day which do not show a corresponding payment, and ALL VRMs where there was a payment but not vehicle within the site. They will find there is a match"

Very good point but as you suggested, I won't take this further at the moment but if it's advised that a further appeal to the IAS is appropriate, I'll certainly bring that up.

I suspect they haven't checked the payment side and only gone by the fact that the reg wasn't recorded and sent out a PCN automatically without investigating properly!

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kommando
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 16:29
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Investigating costs them time and reduces the number of invoices, they have no incentive to do otherwise as their only income is these invoices. If this was ever to get to court as its a civil case the burden of proof is probability, that you would be including a witness statement with the fact a ticket was bought for the correct time will stand unless the PPC can prove otherwise which they cannot do.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 18:24
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It’s worth a response to the ppc. You’re not appealing. You’re stating there wrong with reasons. State that you wil require these records to be disclosed.
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Broadsman
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 19:15
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 18:24) *
It’s worth a response to the ppc. You’re not appealing. You’re stating there wrong with reasons. State that you wil require these records to be disclosed.


Personally, I wouldn't bother communicating with this knuckle dragger.

Well known in Norfolk and **** scared of showing his business model to a court.

IF you sent the reasons why he is wrong, he'd attempt to turn it against you.

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castlepark
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 21:54
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Many thanks for all your replies. Very helpful and really appreciate your support:)

As I've already made the initial appeal stating that payment has been made and could be verified by the machine, I think I'll leave as is.

As Kommando suggested, I'll get a statement from the guy who gave me a pound to verify my request to get change for the machine in the unlikely event it goes to court. Good idea!

I'll just ignore the ensuing threatening letters and update here as and when appropriate.

Again, thanks for all your input.



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kommando
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 10:58
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And you were a witness too, so you write it now and date it so you have 2 witness statements written a short time after the incident.
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castlepark
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 16:46
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I was curious why the machine still issued me a ticket, so I took the attached photo of the instructions recently and it appears I didn't validate the registration number after entering it but the ticket was definitely still issued after payment.

I realise it can be argued that I should have read the instructions more carefully but at the time it was dark, the machine isn't illuminated and it was very hard to read anything.

The fact that it still issued a ticket, I'm not sure if this goes for or against me but as stated earlier, payment should still be recorded on the machine's logs.

I got a short statement from the man who gave me a pound for the machine which is good to have.

This post has been edited by castlepark: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 16:58
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