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SOS - Clamped
DX3P0
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 03:56
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Hello @ ALL and very pleased to find this great forum.

Came online searching for help early Friday evening and landed on the forum and have been reading posts ever since.

Yesterday about 3pm walked to my car as I planned to go pick up 3 kids from school.

I was parked on a public road (no restrictions) by a British Rail station.

As I approached the car noticed the dreaded note pasted on the D/S window warning me vehicle had been immobilised, clamp placed in the front passenger wheel from just after I parked in the morning.

I did not receive any of the penalty charge notices as for a number of reasons, moving, business etc DVLA did not have my current address.

I called the Bailiff Friday evening and he informs me theres an outstanding £500 pounds to get the clamp released !

He also informed me warrant is from TFL for stopping on a red route in July 2018, have no recollection of this btw.

They’re obviously threatening to tow away if payment is not made tomorrow and inform me towing would incur an additional £190.

Bailiff is JBW.

Would greatly appreciate any help and advice in defending this.

Can I request time to make an OOT declaration ?

Thank-you and look forward to your responses.
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post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 03:56
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hcandersen
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 09:00
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The way I see it:

Car being clamped for outstanding road traffic contravention is unusual, normally enforcement agents are able to track down a vehicle to an address and serve papers at those premises.

You posted:
did not receive any of the penalty charge notices as for a number of reasons, moving, business etc DVLA did not have my current address

and that the events took place in July 2018.

The combination of the above strongly suggests that you had failed to update 'your' V5C at the date of the contravention AND that it's probably still not up to date. IMO, your history affects what actions you should take.


Were you the owner of the vehicle on the date of the contravention?
When did your V5C details lapse and when did you update?

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DX3P0
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 10:08
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Good morning and thank-you for your reply @hcandersen.


The way I see it:

Car being clamped for outstanding road traffic contravention is unusual, normally enforcement agents are able to track down a vehicle to an address and serve papers at those premises.


- Re clamp being for a road traffic contravention is there any angle to explore here ?


You posted:
did not receive any of the penalty charge notices as for a number of reasons, moving, business etc DVLA did not have my current address

and that the events took place in July 2018.

The combination of the above strongly suggests that you had failed to update 'your' V5C at the date of the contravention AND that it's probably still not up to date. IMO, your history affects what actions you should take.



- I filled in the V5C details when I bought and taxed the vehicle in March 2018.

However the registration documents never came through the post.

Unfortunately with the upheaval of moving and personal circumstances (issues with a business venture), meant I did not follow up with tracking down the reg documents and updating address details.


Were you the owner of the vehicle on the date of the contravention?


- Yes I was the owner on the said date,


When did your V5C details lapse and when did you update?



- Answered above



Hoping beyond hope !!


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DancingDad
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 10:18
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They've timed that nice.
Any other time and if acted fast enough could well have got the clamps removed without paying and without the removal happening while disputing.
But weekend, TEC do not work so likely even if you sorted out relevant forms today, enforcement likely not to be put on hold till Monday.
And vehicle by then removed with the added fees.

Given that, I suspect best may be to pay and argue afterwards.
If you win you get the monies back, if lose, no worse off then now.
Pragmatic and probably not what you want to hear but....

On disputing, we need information.
I suspect, as does HCA, that you failed to update V5c (registration documents) and as such, all paperwork went elsewhere.
Presumably no mail redirection or arrangements to collect mail?
Or it may be DVLA error or an unfortunate coincidence.
So give us the full story, at he moment we are simply guessing.

Forget about the contravention at the moment, where you are now is simply about process.
There is a mechanism to reset things but you have missed the deadline when this is relatively simple.
And need to give TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre.... the central court that deals with these) a good reason why you missed and why they should accept an out of time request. Bearing in mind that TFL is likely to object with a simple, we sent all the Notices required to address held by DVLA. That usually means a rejection and then an appeal to a District Judge (at a cost)

So let us get our ducks in a row to put the best Out of Time forward and maximise chances.
And think on paying.
Not a nice step but does mitigate and sometimes the best option.
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DX3P0
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 10:52
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Thanks for your reply @DancingDad.


They've timed that nice.
Any other time and if acted fast enough could well have got the clamps removed without paying and without the removal happening while disputing.
But weekend, TEC do not work so likely even if you sorted out relevant forms today, enforcement likely not to be put on hold till Monday.
And vehicle by then removed with the added fees.

- Yes just had to be the weekend !!


Given that, I suspect best may be to pay and argue afterwards.
If you win you get the monies back, if lose, no worse off then now.
Pragmatic and probably not what you want to hear but....

On disputing, we need information.
I suspect, as does HCA, that you failed to update V5c (registration documents) and as such, all paperwork went elsewhere.
Presumably no mail redirection or arrangements to collect mail?
Or it may be DVLA error or an unfortunate coincidence.
So give us the full story, at he moment we are simply guessing.


- I filled in the V5C details when I bought and taxed the vehicle in March 2018.

However the registration documents never came through the post.

Unfortunately with the upheaval of moving and personal circumstances (issues with a business venture), meant I did not follow up with tracking down the reg documents and updating address details.

There is no mail redirection in place or arrangement to collect mail as did not know the new occupants at the property.




Forget about the contravention at the moment, where you are now is simply about process.
There is a mechanism to reset things but you have missed the deadline when this is relatively simple.
And need to give TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre.... the central court that deals with these) a good reason why you missed and why they should accept an out of time request. Bearing in mind that TFL is likely to object with a simple, we sent all the Notices required to address held by DVLA. That usually means a rejection and then an appeal to a District Judge (at a cost)

So let us get our ducks in a row to put the best Out of Time forward and maximise chances.
And think on paying.
Not a nice step but does mitigate and sometimes the best option.


- Thanks could a mitigating circumstance be forms were posted in and V62 lost in the mail ?

This post has been edited by DX3P0: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 10:53
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DancingDad
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 11:22
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Monday you need to contact DVLA and find out where the vehicle is actually registered to?
You also need to contact TFL and find out where the notices were sent, ask for a PCN history, they can email it.
And contact TEC to find out what address is on the warrant.
You can also ask the bailiffs but they often will not play ball, they simply want your money.
If you do contact them, keep repeating that you are submitting Witness Statement and Out of Time to TEC so any further action on their part may be unlawful
(Not true until you do submit but keep telling them that, it may stay action though is unlikely to get the clamps off.

Given what you say, although you are somewhat in error...always make sure V5c is up to date and correct, this is not the normal "I moved and couldn't be bovvered" that often gets people into the deep and sticky stuff.
I suspect that the original PCN went to the previous owner or dealer.
Who then put you in the frame as the new owner.
So TFL would be using whatever address was given to them and that may be in error through no fault of yours.
But am guessing and perhaps being too optimistic so you need to check.
If I am right then a better then normal chance of getting this reset to original PCN.
No guarantees except without address information (that hopefully supports) chances of getting past TEC initially are limited.

Consider paying to limit the damage, you will get it back if you win.

You will need forms from TEC
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/t...nt-centre-forms
TE7 and TE9 for parking contraventions.
And contact details for them
https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/...ment-centre-tec

May also want to consider contacting Sheila at Bailiffs advice online.
She does charge a nominal fee but is good about these things
Read her website anyway
http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/
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hcandersen
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 11:30
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OP, you have no defence against driving an unregistered car for 10 months. This is illegal. It is your responsibility to register your car which, in the event of missing confirmation from DVLA, includes YOU chasing them. The obligation is yours. What baffles me, in as much as you know it's not registered, and what would appal those to whom you would submit an OOT, is that you allowed this to persist for so long. They would not be charitable: you allowing the vehicle to be unregistered would be seen as an act of commission, not omission.

Sorry, but there it is.

Pay now and avoid towing charges.

Review later when all agencies are contactable.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 11:55
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 11:30) *
OP, you have no defence against driving an unregistered car for 10 months. This is illegal. It is your responsibility to register your car ……...


While I fully agree, it is not a case of time.
It is what address TFL used.
And this would have been initially June 18 so 2 to 3 months adrift (bad enough I know) and then (I suspect) whatever address the old owner gave, which may be wrong.

If it can be shown that TFL used wrong address then we can head off the normal "sent all notices to correct address" and maybe get this reset.
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DX3P0
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 12:03
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Thank-you for all the great help and advice.

Getting on the phone with the enforcement agent now to ensure they do not tow vehicle away and will update.



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hcandersen
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 22:59
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@DD, and why would TEC accept an OOT from someone who, in their minds, deliberately failed to register their car ...in order to avoid being pursued by the state. It is axiomatic that the notices were not sent to the OP, they were deliberately keeping their head down to avoid being served!

IMO, to whom the notices were sent is past history. They'll be asking TEC to agree to allow a late submission against a background of a deliberate and continuing attempt to avoid being pursued by the state.

I cannot see any prospect of success, only increased costs.
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Neil B
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 00:43
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 22:59) *
deliberately failed to register their car ...in order to avoid being pursued by the state.

Eh?
QUOTE (DX3P0 @ Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 10:52) *
- I filled in the V5C details when I bought and taxed the vehicle in March 2018.

But -
and you taxed it how exactly? Having done it myself I can't remember the process
and another but -
QUOTE (DX3P0 @ Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 10:52) *
posted in and V62 lost in the mail ?

Was it V5 or V62 and, if the latter, why?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 07:42
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The evidence as per the OP's account:

I filled in the V5C details when I bought and taxed the vehicle in March 2018.

However the registration documents never came through the post.

Unfortunately with the upheaval of moving and personal circumstances (issues with a business venture), meant I did not follow up with tracking down the reg documents and updating address details.

So, 10 months and counting.....
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The Rookie
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 07:50
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While it’s the previous keepers obligation to notify DVLA of the transfer, you have n obligation to chase it up if you didn’t get the paperwork.

You may well have filled in the form, did the previous keeper send it, was it read correctly etc. We don’t know.

I think HCA is being a bit harsh, but none the less if I didn’t have the V5c after two months I’d be chasing it.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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PPC PCN's
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DancingDad
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 07:53
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 22:59) *
@DD, and why would TEC accept an OOT from someone who, in their minds, deliberately failed to register their car ...in order to avoid being pursued by the state. It is axiomatic that the notices were not sent to the OP, they were deliberately keeping their head down to avoid being served!

…...


Because TEC are to an extent robots who may accept a reason that is based on someone else's error, if that is the case.
There is a vast difference between someone who couldn't be bothered and someone who tried, failed and didn't chase it.
Neither good but one is a little better then another.
Key is whether TFL argue, TEC will accept the OOT as long as it gives a decent request and TFL do not contest.
Which they are less likely to do if they are shown address they used was wrong
I offer no guarantees, just trying to maximise chances.

Costs ?
If OP takes advise and pays before vehicle is lifted, there is no cost for going through OOT process and no on cost from bailiffs.
If OOT is rejected, OP can then take a view on whether or not to throw money at an N244 application or cut losses.
If OOt is accepted then monies paid will be refunded.
But it costs nothing to try the OOT route and you never know.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 13:06
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There is a vast difference between someone who couldn't be bothered and someone who tried, failed and didn't chase it.


You say tomayto, I say tomarto smile.gif

To me you can't get a cigarette paper between the two alternatives above.

OP, you have to make a decision. It might even have been made for you if the vehicle's been towed.
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