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[NIP Wizard] No Visible Speed Camera Signs 37 in 30 Zone
MCCRoadster
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 11:47
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2019
Date of the NIP: - 26 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 28 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Measham road, Acresford, Leicestershire, United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Hirer
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Left 40mph limited main road to join a 30mph road, both roads displayed clear signage of limits. Entered side road slowly and noticed stationary vehicle in opposite direction motion with his hand ‘slow down’ which at the time I thought odd as I wasn’t driving quickly. My thoughts then went to speed camera so continued with some caution. I was aware further up the road that average speed cameras are set up and for 30mph but I never reached this area. I observed that there were no speed camera signs anywhere visible at all, and I later took photographs to provide evidence of this. The road is very twisty here so it’s difficult to go too fast. As I exited the small village I could see marker boards denoting national speed limit. I began to increase my speed in response to this. Just then I noticed a stationary speed camera van parked outside some house at the end of the village and just prior to the national speed limit change. I instinctively slowed and glanced at my speedometer (which is constantly showing as a digital readout, and I had been monitoring throughout) and I am confident that this did not exceed 39mph. Bearing in mind that speedometers are set with a threshold of about 5mph, then my speed should have been an actual 34mph. It is of course possible that I may have not realised my speed touch 42mph in aniticipation to the 60mph limit change. What can be done here and are there any grounds to there being no speed camera signs visible for this mobile site? I did read that all sites need to be adequately signed to warn motorists of speed cameras. Your help and advice is appreciated thank you.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:47:53 +0000
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post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 11:47
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 11:52
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Warning signs for cameras are not required. Where ever you read that they were is wrong.
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 12:06
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 12:47) *
I am confident that this did not exceed 39mph. Bearing in mind that speedometers are set with a threshold of about 5mph, then my speed should have been an actual 34mph.

This is wrong too.

Speedometers must never under-read true speed but they are not set with a 5mph threshold. Modern speedometers are scarily accurate, so an indicated 39mph will likely be 37mph, or even 38mph.

QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 12:47) *
As I exited the small village I could see marker boards denoting national speed limit. I began to increase my speed in response to this.

You probably know this, but the limit starts at the signs. (Subject to being in the correct position relative to the order)

You shouldn't increase speed until past them - there is no grace distance.

QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 12:52) *
Warning signs for cameras are not required. Where ever you read that they were is wrong.

Indeed. There often are warning signs near cameras but there's no defence if they do not exist. (The speed limit signs, and quite often streetlighting, set the limit and you are expected to comply at all times)

Previous guidance referred to signs and painting cameras yellow but is not mandatory.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 12:07


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MCCRoadster
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 12:34
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Thanks for the replies. I did read that signs need to be present and it was an official organisation and if they are not present you should contact the local police authority responsible. However I’m finding it difficult to relocate this site and as you say, all other references state that they are not necessary. Guidelines not law. Can breaking guidelines be challenged? May I ask why then do we have speed camera signs at all if they are not mandatory ? I must confess that every single speed camera location that I have ever seen, mobile or otherwise, has always had a speed camera sign visible on the road prior to the site. I read last month that apparently they are necessary but I’ve also read the same many years ago. True to what I read, I have always seen signage for cameras.....until now. So do I have any defence? Can I claim I wasn’t going that fast and their equipment may be inaccurate ? Or do I just take it on the chin ? Thanks

Thanks for the replies. I did read that signs need to be present and it was an official organisation and if they are not present you should contact the local police authority responsible. However I’m finding it difficult to relocate this site and as you say, all other references state that they are not necessary. Guidelines not law. Can breaking guidelines be challenged? May I ask why then do we have speed camera signs at all if they are not mandatory ? I must confess that every single speed camera location that I have ever seen, mobile or otherwise, has always had a speed camera sign visible on the road prior to the site. I read last month that apparently they are necessary but I’ve also read the same many years ago. True to what I read, I have always seen signage for cameras.....until now. So do I have any defence? Can I claim I wasn’t going that fast and their equipment may be inaccurate ? Or do I just take it on the chin ? Thanks
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 13:17
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 13:34) *
<snip stuff about camera signs> So do I have any defence?

No. As I've already stated the only the (mandatory) speed limit signs need to be correct.

QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 13:34) *
Can I claim I wasn’t going that fast and their equipment may be inaccurate ?

You can claim but the reading from the approved device will be presumed correct unless you can show otherwise.

QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 13:34) *
Or do I just take it on the chin ?

That excess is a course or fixed penalty (3 points £100). We haven't seen anything yet that will amount to a defence. Challenging is an expensive business if you lose.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 14:34
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 13:34) *
So do I have any defence? Can I claim I wasn’t going that fast and their equipment may be inaccurate ? Or do I just take it on the chin ? Thanks

Subject to certain exceptions which are irrelevant here (ambulance use of the vehicle, duress of circumstances etc...), the only real defence to speeding is to show that you weren't speeding. It very much doesn't sound like you can do that, so your best option is probably to take this one on the chin. If you contest it in court and lose, on top of any fine you'll also have to pay prosecution costs and the guideline amount is £620, add the fine and the victim surcharge and you're looking at around a grand; you will then have to declare the conviction to your insurance company for up to 5 years.

If they offer you a speed awareness course, it would probably be best / cheapest solution and it avoids the penalty points too.

If not, the fixed penalty is £100 and 3 points.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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MCCRoadster
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 22:25
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This is from the Leicestershire speed safety awareness site :

“Beware of the hidden trap!”
This is one of the biggest myths about safety cameras.
All camera sites in the area are correctly signed and visible. The fixed speed and red-light cameras are bright yellow and our mobile camera vans have high visibility markings. All sites have a history of collisions and a significant speeding problem.

I found the location relating to my case listed within their catalogue of sites.

Again, contrary to what they advertise and claim, this mobile site was definitely not correctly signed and visible. Surely there is some scope here? Even if it’s simply to query it with them?

I’m also not confident that 37mph is an accurate speed. Yes I know I said 39mph but again I am certain that vehicle speedometers are not 100% accurate and many will agree that most motor manufacturers set their speedometers out by around 5mph. This is well documented and is true in practice. You can set cruise control at 35mph during average speed cameras and not receive a ticket. If that was your true speed it wouldn’t be possible to escape a fine. Ever set up sat NAV display speed next to speedometer? You’ll see the difference.

Im tempted to go along the route of; site not correctly signed and visible contrary to your safety website and disputing actual speed. But how would I go about doing this please and I’m imaging the risks are great? If signage holds any water then would this be addressed before court?

The reason I have come here to this site is to gain advice as to how ‘I may wish to fight’ this along with the risks involved in doing so. Otherwise I’d had just paid the fine and taken the points regardless.

I can then make an informed decision.

Thank you
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 22:33
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Have you actually read the replies?

The costs of going to court are above too.

No harm in pursuing the camera unit but they will not relent.

Enforcement begins at +10%+2mph, which is why your cruise set at 35mph doesn’t trigger the threshold. (Actual speed is likely to be 33/34mph anyway)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 22:33
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There is no requirement in law for there to be signs warning you of speed cameras, as you’ve been told several times. You could raise this with the police before you accept any fixed penalty or course offer. However, if they proceed it will present you no defence if you go to court. Doing that will cost you an extra few hundred in costs.

I disagree with you about speedometers - mine does not over-read by 5 mph, so your widely accepted fact appears to be speculation on your part. Whether the manufacturer of your particular vehicle does it I don’t know - perhaps you could ask them. Anyway, the device used is assumed to be operating correctly (and thus the reading correct) unless you can prove otherwise. How do you propose to do that? I don’t think “my speedo over-reads by 5mph and I was only doing x according to it” is going to cut it. Again, large costs if you do so and lose.

Your money, your choice though.


--------------------
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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 22:37
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Speedometers will not under read true speed and must be no more than 10% over if operating correctly. In reality they are far more accurate than that - I could dig out the regs if necessary.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 07:24
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I used to work for Jaguar Land-Rover (engineering, not dealership), the target overread on digital speedo’s was 1mph to 30mph and 2mph above that. BMW had the same targets for Mini and VW used 2kph and 3 kph. All a long way below your ‘factual’ 5mph which is frankly rowlocks.

With respect to conspicuity, the DfT issued guidance on how to make them conspicuous, so if the camera partnership WANT to make them conspicuous they have guidance on how to do it. That’s a long way from being a legal requirement.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 07:28


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The Slithy Tove
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 07:40
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 13:34) *
Guidelines not law. Can breaking guidelines be challenged?
I think you've answered your own question there.
QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 13:34) *
May I ask why then do we have speed camera signs at all if they are not mandatory ?
To encourage you to keep within the speed limit, maybe? [NOTE: This is not being judgmental smile.gif]

This post has been edited by The Slithy Tove: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 08:26
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Steve_999
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 08:03
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Was it not the case, some years ago, that in order for the camera partnerships to retain some of the "revenue" they had to follow the conspicuity guidelines?

Although no longer the case, most have not removed existing signs.
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MCCRoadster
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 08:35
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I just want some honest ‘helpful’ advice, not sarcastic comments and ‘I told you so’ attitude. That doesn’t help and is not why I’m asking advice. Constructive polite answers would be appreciated instead of condescending replies please. That’s just annoying and unnecessary. I’m not an 18 year old fresh out of driving school. I’ve been driving for many years.

What you’re telling me is that everything I’ve been led to believe for years is ‘rollicks’ apparently and should be tossed out the window. Speed camera sites don’t need to be identified no, hey they dont even need to paint then a nice shade of yellow, they do that for fun. Hell, I can be sarcastic too!

And the speedo set up wasn’t just made up out the blue. There is clear documentation out there my official sources stating that. But apparently no, my Speedo is accurate to 1mph. Right, ok then.

And of course my defence would NOT be hey I was doing a higher speed but please minus 5mph first. It would be that I was driving at a slower speed under the safety camera threshold of 10% plus 2. And yes, Leicestershire police adhere to that rule.

Why I am needing to fight my corner here when all I want is some ‘constructive’ help.

Ie ‘you could try A,B or C to challenge this but the risks in doing so are D. Here’s his you would go about doing this...’

Many thanks. Apologies if abrupt but these comments are far from helpful in my opinion
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Jlc
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 09:08
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Ignore your speedo and any 'inaccuracies' - only what matters is the speed measurement from the laser.

QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 09:35) *
It would be that I was driving at a slower speed under the safety camera threshold of 10% plus 2.

...but you weren't.

If you haven't named the driver yet ask them for a photo to assist in the driver identification. They will usually supply and it will probably show you the money shot... (The 28 day clock doesn't stop)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 09:09


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MCCRoadster
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 09:21
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Ok thank you smile.gif
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MCCRoadster
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 09:32
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Will there be information on the photo which can be checked or is asking them for it simply to determine if they have one at all? Basically, does obtaining the photo change anything? Many thanks.
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NewJudge
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 10:19
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 10:32) *
Will there be information on the photo which can be checked or is asking them for it simply to determine if they have one at all? Basically, does obtaining the photo change anything? Many thanks.
The photograph is unlikely to help you much. They will rely on other evidence to prove your speed if the matter goes to court (which you will be provided with if it gets that far). They will have a photo - it's what they use to identify your vehicle. Asking for it doesn't change anything and in particular it does not negate or postpone your obligation to provide the driver's details. The normal form is to ask for "photographs to help identify the driver." You should not ask for "evidence". You are not entitled to any at this stage and your request may be misconstrued.
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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 11:33
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QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 09:35) *
What you’re telling me is that everything I’ve been led to believe for years is ‘rollicks’ apparently and should be tossed out the window. Speed camera sites don’t need to be identified no, hey they dont even need to paint then a nice shade of yellow

That is correct, legally there's nothing to stop them outright hiding. We tell people what the legal position is, rather than what they want to hear.

QUOTE (MCCRoadster @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 09:35) *
And of course my defence would NOT be hey I was doing a higher speed but please minus 5mph first. It would be that I was driving at a slower speed under the safety camera threshold of 10% plus 2. And yes, Leicestershire police adhere to that rule.

What the police adhere to is neither here nor there once court proceedings have been instituted. You say you were doing at most 34, but the speed limit was 30. So even if you can prove you were only doing 34, you will still be found guilty (indeed, saying you were doing 34 mph is likely to be accepted as a guilty plea).

Of course, if the police insist you were doing 39 or 43 or whatever, you can request a Newton hearing, where you basically tell the court you accept you were speeding but not as much as the police allege. But in practice, whether you are convicted of doing 34 or 39 is unlikely to make any difference to your sentence, and the costs are going to be significantly greater than accepting a speed awareness course or a fixed penalty in any event.

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear, but I hope you find this advice to be helpful, even if it's not what you were hoping for.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Jlc
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 11:46
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Even in a Newton hearing the prosecution would not accept anything less than the measured speed.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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