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Received a PCN for 'parking on a bus stop' while pulling over for an emergency services vehicle. Challenged and Denied.
Vaultofgrass
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 11:34
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First time poster, I appreciate any help you can offer!

I was in Kingston-on-Thames at midnight on the 13/11/2018 and on my way home I saw flashing blue lights in my rear view mirror. It was quite dark and I couldn't tell how many vehicles were approaching or how fast so I pulled over to the far left and gave them space to pass, however I was partially over a bus stop. After less than a minute the emergency services vehicle had still not passed and on closer inspection I could see they had stopped to deal with something else about 200-300ft behind me. Satisfied that they were not interested in me, I continued to drive home

A week later I received a PCN in the mail for £110 on the grounds of the following alleged parking contravention: 47J: Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand (camera enforcement). I was given a few images and instructions on how to view the CCTV footage online, however after following the instructions it appears the data is corrupted. I was hoping the CCTV would show the flashing lights behind me but I can't even access the footage. Instead of seeing the images and footage I can just see some broken 'icons' where the pictures should be and a box with an X through it for the video. I callled up the help team and they saw it too and said they would try to fix it and attach a note to my case. (It is worth noting that even as I write this now, the footage is still unavailable.) The lady on the phone advised me to challenge it immediately even without seeing the evidence, so I challenged it immediately and explained my reasoning and thought nothing more of it.


I received a letter today refusing my challenge.

It was refused because the presence of emergency vehicles does not allow me to break the law. Normally I'd just pay it, but I genuinely believe I did nothing wrong by pulling over and I was simply trying to obey the law.

It was dark and the lights were about 200-300ft behind me, I couldn't assess the situation clearly enough to determine how many cars there were, how fast they were travelling, and whether I should pull over or not, I just wanted to get out of their way. Had they been travelling at 60mph in a pursuit I would have had less than 3.5 seconds to move out of the way.

I still cannot access any of the CCTV evidence, and unfortunately I have only heard about the latest letter over the phone from my dad as I am not home right now, however I do have the original PCN letter with me. According to my dad the letter stated "Because the police car did not attempt to pass me I had no reason to pull over" which doesn't make sense to me really.

I'd really like to challenge this again but my last attempt was obviously not good enough for them and I'm hoping you guys can offer some sound advice?

If you need more details please just ask. I have the original letter here and can offer any information from that, however I do not yet have a copy of the latest letter.

Pictures will follow shortly. Once again, the online files are inaccessible so I only have these small pictures to use.





This post has been edited by Vaultofgrass: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 12:07
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post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 11:34
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Incandescent
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 11:44
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Need to see PCN, your reps and their rejection of them. However, if it were me, I'd register an appeal at London Tribunals, as this is just venal money-grubbing, frankly, with no traffic management benefit here whatsoever. You acted just like most people would in your situation to let the emergency vehicle through, so were stopped "in traffic". Do they issue PCNs to every vehicle stopped there when there is a queue ? Of course not !

However, it would probably better to attend the adjudication in person for this case if you do decide to stand your ground.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 11:45
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If you PM me detailsl'll see what pics/video are available.
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Vaultofgrass
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 11:52
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Thanks for the replies.

Sorry about the wait here are pictures of the original PCN. I don't have the recent rejection unfortunately but will get it ASAP.

https://imgur.com/a/HV1Kv5V
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cp8759
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 17:53
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We need to see the video. Send a private message to me or stamfordman with the PCN number and number plate and we'll post the video for you.


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hcandersen
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 22:16
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OP, where is 'the effect of paras (5) and (6)' please - see 3(4)(e). You have surely not posted the whole PCN:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made
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DancingDad
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 23:28
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Piggin ridiculous.
Unfortunately, there is no exemption that specifically allows stopping on a bus stop to allow blue lights past.
In that respect the council is right.
Which is not to say that I would accept it, I would appeal and argue the case with an adjudicator.
A sympathetic one can easily find in your favour and an unsympathetic one can be persuaded to.

Various exemptions can be applied (at a stretch)
Blue lights mean an emergency vehicle, two out of three chances it is police or ambulance.
Exemption of providing a response to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service.... blue lights meaning get out of my way, which you did.
Exemption of pulling over at the direction of a constable or traffic officer in uniform..... direction being get out of my way.
Then there is the exemption of removing an obstruction from traffic.... you being the obstruction, the blue lights being the traffic.
And there is a difference between being stopped and stopping in the normal course of driving, normal being to pull over and let blue lights past.
Bothers me somewhat that they seemed to be up to 100 yards away so plenty of time to find a better stopping point...maybe but would need some justification
Reasonable chance we can add failing to consider mitigating circumstance given the wording your dad read but would need to see the whole NOR to be sure.

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cp8759
post Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 13:01
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The evidence is simply not on the council website, this is an issue at their end. You need to email the council and ask them to provide a copy of the video, tell them that if they can't fix it they can send you a DVD instead. Keep a copy of all correspondence you send.


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stamfordman
post Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 13:04
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Kingston usually good with video, at least with box junctions. maybe they have problems.
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Vaultofgrass
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 11:07
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Thanks for the help guys but I'm probably just gonna cave and pay the reduced rate now.

According to my rejection letter, I can appeal the decision again, but doing so means I have to pay the full amount if it still gets rejected.

I don't have much faith in the council and knowing my luck, even with the technical issues on their website, I will probably still lose and have to pay the full amount, which is a ridiculous amount for such a small and honest mistake.

Trying to fight this and the risk of paying the full amount is just gonna cause additional stress, especially when I have Christmas costs to worry about.

It sucks but I think I'll just pay the reduced rate and forget about it. If anyone has any last minute suggestions feel free to throw them my way, but otherwise I'll probably pay it off in a few days and move on.

I really appreciate the help everyone, this is a great little community and I will certainly return should I need advice again!
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cp8759
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 15:30
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I would definitely not pay a penny. You seem to be forgetting the council are not judge, jury and executioner, and if the video is missing your chances of success are good. This is because ultimately these matters are not decided by the council at all, the matter falls to be dealt with by the London Tribunals who are independent of the council and have no financial interest in the outcome. See https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained

We've recently had cases where the council never gets round to sorting out the video, so when the adjudicator tries to look at the evidence, there is no evidence, so the council's case gets thrown out due to lack of evidence.

But even if the video gets fixed, you have reasonable chances because under the Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006, it's an offence if you don't get out of the way of an emergency vehicle, you can argue that pulling over for as long as is necessary to establish whether an emergency vehicle needs to go past does not constitute "waiting" and is instead a moving traffic manoeuvre.

And even if none of that works, you can still argue you've been prejudiced because the council has not allowed you to see the video before you had to file your appeal, which is self-evidently unfair. It has been held that any public authority has a common law duty to act fairly, see R v Secretary of State for the Home Department ex parte Doody [1994] 1 AC 531: "Where an Act of
Parliament confers an administrative power there is a presumption that it will be exercised in a manner which is fair in all the circumstances
".


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hcandersen
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 15:45
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OP, where is the following in the PCN? It is mandatory that this informatin is included:


(5) The recipient of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it—

(a)to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

(6) Where the recipient of the penalty charge notice makes a request under paragraph (5), the enforcement authority shall comply with the request within a reasonable time.

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Vaultofgrass
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 20:30
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 15:30) *
I would definitely not pay a penny. You seem to be forgetting the council are not judge, jury and executioner, and if the video is missing your chances of success are good. This is because ultimately these matters are not decided by the council at all, the matter falls to be dealt with by the London Tribunals who are independent of the council and have no financial interest in the outcome. See https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained


Thanks so much for this advice, I'll definitely use this to my advantage.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 15:45) *
OP, where is the following in the PCN? It is mandatory that this informatin is included:
.


I'm not following, are you saying that this information is missing from the PCN? I am certain I uploaded all the pages of the PCN. If they have forgotten something can I use that to my advantage here?
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hcandersen
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 22:06
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The information must be included in a PCN. No ifs or buts, it must be. The exact words need not be used, but the substance must be conveyed.

I can see 'In most cases you can view footage..'

B******s.

Will you pl just post in a new post that or those parts of the PCN which convey the regulatory requirements. You've got the PCN, so I suggest you read it pl.
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Neil B
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 22:20
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 22:06) *
The information must be included in a PCN. No ifs or buts, it must be. The exact words need not be used, but the substance must be conveyed.

I can see 'In most cases you can view footage..'

B******s.

Will you pl just post in a new post that or those parts of the PCN which convey the regulatory requirements. You've got the PCN, so I suggest you read it pl.

+1
I've had to blow images up and scroll around but I can't find it.

Case in hand; you're entitled to view vid through set statutory means yet you didn't know until HCA told you.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Vaultofgrass
post Fri, 7 Dec 2018 - 23:44
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Alright guys I'm all over it.

Just to clarify, I should make a new post in this forum about the PCN not meeting regulatory requirements? Do I have that right?

Sorry if I'm being stupid guys I'm not the brightest bulb, ELI5 if it helps.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 8 Dec 2018 - 00:00
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no, add anything to this thread. do not start a new one.
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Vaultofgrass
post Sat, 8 Dec 2018 - 10:02
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Oh okay I must have misunderstood, so what is my next step here?
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cp8759
post Sat, 8 Dec 2018 - 13:32
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Vaultofgrass the mandatory information is not included on the pages of the PCN that you have shown us. Is there anything printed on the back of the last page, or is it blank?


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DancingDad
post Sat, 8 Dec 2018 - 15:04
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Repost the whole of the PCN, every page in one new single post, we can then check it easily and know that all is there.

Just a cautionary note on video viewing.
TPT adjudicators seem to accept that information re video viewing online satisfies spirit if not the wording.
London Tribunal adjudicators, they drove a bus through wording requirements with Miller Et Al.
Not saying do not use it, just we need to word any challenge that includes carefully.
And it is not the silver bullet that it ought to be.
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