Hounslow borough pheonix way (into heston services) PCN |
Hounslow borough pheonix way (into heston services) PCN |
Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 21:40
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 27 Dec 2014 Member No.: 74,902 |
Hi,
I received Penalty charge notice through the post today issue by Hounslow borough using APNR and need advise please, here is the PCN http://tinypic.com/r/k9uvk9/9 http://tinypic.com/r/v43tqr/9 I used this phoenix way road many times to get into heston services (M4) and join the motorway instead of using the junction to save time and never had any issues until i receive this PCN. i went back to see whats changed and noticed that there is a new sign "Except permit holders" upon entering heston service through phoenix way which obviously i didnt realise as i used this on daily basis. I took some pictures of this sign here; http://tinypic.com/r/ix5i10/9 http://tinypic.com/r/300hc0i/9 i need some advise if there is any way it can be avoided as i missed those new signs and i am worried that i may get more PCN's as used this for atleast 5 times after that. i am also attaching images taken from PCN council website thanks |
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Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 21:40
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 08:38
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Hi there , I’ve been stung too by this recent change and will receive several more tickets from going in and out as I regularly use the services as a local resident. Didn’t think twice to drive through as it is a habit and there were no clear warnings prior forbidding access. This has been a common entry and exit point to services for decades, as is M4 East off North Hyde Lane which rightfully still has no access restrictions to services. https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/news/article/55...way_enforcement states enforcement has been in effect since 23 July 2018. As a local resident I was not aware of an impending change. I’ve since walked the location (and saw at least 10 cars driving into the LB of Hounslow ‘honey trap’) and made the following observations. The section past the signs appears to be a designated road (Norwood Road). The road naming at this location comes across as very random into a service area. The signs are misleading, contradictory and numerous. There is the ‘no motor vehicle’ which is only usually seen in pedestrianised areas, beside it is the blue rectangular sign which is ‘instructional’ and advises of no access to motorway (no mention of the service station). Its worth noting that this sign is obscured by a manually printed sign ‘stop £130 fine’. (Obviously another unsuspecting member of the public who tried to help us !) There is also a now discarded & felled travelodge sign in the foliage which directed customers past this location (they really should’ve disposed of this as it’s clear evidence that this was a common entry & exit point as advised by service station outlets! There is also an M&S banner at this section ). Within the service station there is a yellow traffic sign (diverted traffic), actually directing road users to Norwood Road and the ‘no vehicle’ location as there are roadworks preventing access back onto M4 West from this location. An FOI request would be interesting but I wouldn’t hold my breath for an outcome. This is a FOI reply from July 2018 https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/phoenix_way_heston. I’m wondering whether an email to the area MP Seema Malhotra would assist given as so many people will be affected. I note a rejected petition in June 2018 on this very matter citing that it was for an MP’s input rather than a petition https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/221664. IMHO anyone who has shelled out already should be refunded and the signs withdrawn/ suspended as its a flawed set up. I note that on Twitter , Councillor Malhotra is aware of its new sign but there is mention of location always being a prohibited access point which from the felled sign and the blue rectangular sign, is inaccurate , and I doubt she’s aware of the volume of people that have and will be affected. Also a search on Twitter of ‘Phoenix Way , Heston’ will bring up Hounslow West Police (June 30th 2018) advising to ‘no longer use’ this point as will be monitored by CCTV , which again substantiates that this was a locally accepted access point to services. If LB of Hounslow really wanted to prohibit access reasonably they would have erected a physical barrier only accessible by ‘permit holders’ or used a ‘no entry’ sign instead. The map/plan from @kabirbai showing no warning signs at 1 & 2 for those turning into Phoenix Way from the main road (Cranford Lane) is key too. https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/download/downlo...-_tmop05417.pdf shows the background for traffic order which is incomplete due to the above omissions. Amendment to order on https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/download/downlo...-_tmop05417.pdf NB “Authorise Vehicle List” means a list of authorised road user vehicle registration numbers supplied to London Borough of Hounslow by Moto and/or Travelodge. Does this mean that service area users are permitted to use this route if logging vehicle registrations with MOTO or Travelodge ? So much ambiguity ! I took quite a few pictures but I’ve been unable to upload onto here. I hope these comments help the hundreds of people who have or will receive a £130 fine for this farce AFAIK, there has never been official access to the MWSA from Phoenix Way - as you can see from the photo's, there used to be a barrier there, but Moto chose not to replace it and put their own camera in. Whether that has a link to a database of authorised Reg. Nos., I don't know. IMO, the crux of the matter lies with where the boundary between the Public Highway and Moto's property is - when I worked in this area it was always regarded as the line of cobbles which can be seen just behind the OPs car. Has this changed by Hounslow Council adopting the road beyond this point? If they haven't, then they cannot enforce. |
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Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:45
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Interesting response from the council:
You have requested the following: Has Phoenix Way been adopted as a public right of way? If so, please could you confirm when Phoenix Way was adopted, and could you please provide a map showing the exact extent of the public highway? Our response: Phoenix Way is not a public right of way, but is adopted carriageway. The map below shows the extent of the adopted carriageway on Phoenix Way, and I’ve left the key visible to the left which shows the light pink coloured areas are ‘adopted carriageway’. The area where the restriction applies appears to be "unadopted private" so not a highway, hence it appears the council have no authority to enforce moving traffic legislation. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 14:44
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Looking at that plan, it appears to show that the adopted road ends at the line of cobbles that I referred to in my earlier post.
It also appears to show that Hounslow have installed their camera on unadopted private property - surely they cannot do this? OP - have you received further PCNs? This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 14:46 |
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Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 15:52
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 27 Dec 2014 Member No.: 74,902 |
i have not received more PCN's yet as i was expecting atleast couple more
i have tho challenged my PCN on the basis that this area may not have been adopted , which seems to be the case thanks to cp8759 query. i will be going all the way with this , waiting to see what council response would be, i think this will end up in tribunal and i will take that risk |
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Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 16:26
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
Interesting, there's a similar kind of road close to me that leads from The Fairway NW7 to the London Gateway services and it also has a flying motorcycle with an exception of "authorised" vehicles, but there are businesses down that road e.g. a scrap metal yard, so not sure how anyone accesses those.
It may provide a route for cyclists and pedestrians to get to the services as they cannot of course use the motorway. Still I wonder who has the authority to enforce. The Fairway is definitely in Barnet but the service station is not and I have no idea about that road. There is also no motorway junction anywhere close to Apex Corner. That roadway also has a gate. In both cases I guess it provides access for emergency vehicles, still it's all a matter of traffic "enforcement". |
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Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 19:36
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Interesting, there's a similar kind of road close to me that leads from The Fairway NW7 to the London Gateway services and it also has a flying motorcycle with an exception of "authorised" vehicles, but there are businesses down that road e.g. a scrap metal yard, so not sure how anyone accesses those. It may provide a route for cyclists and pedestrians to get to the services as they cannot of course use the motorway. Still I wonder who has the authority to enforce. The Fairway is definitely in Barnet but the service station is not and I have no idea about that road. There is also no motorway junction anywhere close to Apex Corner. That roadway also has a gate. In both cases I guess it provides access for emergency vehicles, still it's all a matter of traffic "enforcement". Welcome Break must have more money than Moto they're installing gates that would probably stop a tank! |
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Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 21:27
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#27
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 26 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,584 |
I unfortunately caved and paid my fine for Phoenix Way while I could still get the discount as I'm really busy at the moment and it seemed as though fighting it could turn in to a long process. I never imagined they wouldn't even have the authority to enforce a PCN on the road in question so I'm a bit annoyed at myself now. From a legal perspective, how can they get away with doing that? Wouldn't it be classed as fraud?
I don't suppose I can file a claim to get my payment back given they didn't have the authority to charge me? |
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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 08:53
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
I unfortunately caved and paid my fine for Phoenix Way while I could still get the discount as I'm really busy at the moment and it seemed as though fighting it could turn in to a long process. I never imagined they wouldn't even have the authority to enforce a PCN on the road in question so I'm a bit annoyed at myself now. From a legal perspective, how can they get away with doing that? Wouldn't it be classed as fraud? I don't suppose I can file a claim to get my payment back given they didn't have the authority to charge me? Once you have paid the discount rate it is close to impossible to get the money back. But this isn't your thread, and the OP here received multiple PCNs so there is far more money at stake here. |
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Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 15:16
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#29
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 2 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,158 |
i have not received more PCN's yet as i was expecting atleast couple more i have tho challenged my PCN on the basis that this area may not have been adopted , which seems to be the case thanks to cp8759 query. i will be going all the way with this , waiting to see what council response would be, i think this will end up in tribunal and i will take that risk Hi Kabirbai, I’ve just had the first (potentially of many!) PCNs from Phoenix Way drop through the door? Have you had any success in the last few weeks with your appeal? Many thanks |
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Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:16
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
I unfortunately caved and paid my fine for Phoenix Way while I could still get the discount as I'm really busy at the moment and it seemed as though fighting it could turn in to a long process. I never imagined they wouldn't even have the authority to enforce a PCN on the road in question so I'm a bit annoyed at myself now. From a legal perspective, how can they get away with doing that? Wouldn't it be classed as fraud? I don't suppose I can file a claim to get my payment back given they didn't have the authority to charge me? No, once the penalty is paid, that's it, plus we don't know that they have no authority to issue. This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:22 |
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Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:29
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 27 Dec 2014 Member No.: 74,902 |
there is some update on my case since i challenged my pcn ;
i challenged pcn within 14 days(02 sept) by emailing hounslow council and i was waiting for either acceptance or rejection but come to my surprise yesterday i received charge certificate demanding full amount , see attached , looks like they did not receive my appeal which is rubbish as i sent them email and i got an automated reply as well. to be honest , i was expecting rejection appeal notice so i could take them to tribunal but due to this council blunder i just don't know what to do, any advise please https://ibb.co/hFLmTe http://ibb.co/gcFaMz This post has been edited by kabirbai: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:30 |
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Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:52
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Dont worry this can be sorted and maybe work to your benefit.
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 13:06
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 27 Dec 2014 Member No.: 74,902 |
thanks for that,
can you please advise next step for me |
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Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 20:50
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#34
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 5 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,230 |
Hi
I have also been a victim of the penalty driving through phoenix way .I would appreciate if anyone can shine some light in my direction . I got issued the first notice for the 18th sept 2018 which I received on the 1st oct but then I received another yesterday for 19th sept ( as I am using the road everyday ) I am ******** myself are they gonna give me notices for everyday from 18th till daybefore when I stopped using the road ? Has anyone of you received multiple notices like me and what has the outcome been ? Really appreciate the info. |
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Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 21:49
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hi I have also been a victim of the penalty driving through phoenix way .I would appreciate if anyone can shine some light in my direction . I got issued the first notice for the 18th sept 2018 which I received on the 1st oct but then I received another yesterday for 19th sept ( as I am using the road everyday ) I am ******** myself are they gonna give me notices for everyday from 18th till daybefore when I stopped using the road ? Has anyone of you received multiple notices like me and what has the outcome been ? Really appreciate the info. Start your own thread and post your documents within it. the advice on this thread might be different than that which applies to your case -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:52
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
there is some update on my case since i challenged my pcn ; i challenged pcn within 14 days(02 sept) by emailing hounslow council and i was waiting for either acceptance or rejection but come to my surprise yesterday i received charge certificate demanding full amount , see attached , looks like they did not receive my appeal which is rubbish as i sent them email and i got an automated reply as well. to be honest , i was expecting rejection appeal notice so i could take them to tribunal but due to this council blunder i just don't know what to do, any advise please https://ibb.co/hFLmTe http://ibb.co/gcFaMz Wait for the Order for Recovery to arrive, there is then a procedure to re-set the process on the basis that you made representations but never received a reply. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 14:26
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 27 Dec 2014 Member No.: 74,902 |
there is some update on my case since i challenged my pcn ; i challenged pcn within 14 days(02 sept) by emailing hounslow council and i was waiting for either acceptance or rejection but come to my surprise yesterday i received charge certificate demanding full amount , see attached , looks like they did not receive my appeal which is rubbish as i sent them email and i got an automated reply as well. to be honest , i was expecting rejection appeal notice so i could take them to tribunal but due to this council blunder i just don't know what to do, any advise please https://ibb.co/hFLmTe http://ibb.co/gcFaMz Wait for the Order for Recovery to arrive, there is then a procedure to re-set the process on the basis that you made representations but never received a reply. sure thanks, will wait for order for recovery and submit witness statement that i did not receive notice of rejection for my representation will update the forum as soon as there is more progress |
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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 14:22
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 18 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,470 |
Can I draw your attention to a new thread with my PCN and some new changes/info: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=123528
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Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 22:00
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#39
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 26 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,622 |
Hi. I sent a representation to london tribunals and LBH didn’t contest, closed case.
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Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 22:08
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,905 Joined: 11 Jul 2010 Member No.: 38,904 |
Well done!
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