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Logician
Posted on: Thu, 10 May 2018 - 21:09


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QUOTE (Kaskz @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 17:39) *
Thanks for the replys. Received nip on the 17/4/18 No excuses for not being on the ball but due to the registered keeper having surgery for cancer letters were not opened. Busy family home and now can't locate who was driving at that time. Not happy and unnecersary stress at this difficult time. Really don't know what to do. I was thinking of calling them tomorrow to see what they will say if I explain? Or how should the form be filled out on this situation?


Do not explain that you cannot identify the driver or you will be in court, explain the delay and ask for more time and the photos to assist in identifying the driver. You need to end up with a single identified driver, even if it is just the most likely, but do not say that is what they are.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1381176 · Replies: 9 · Views: 490

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 10 May 2018 - 09:25


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The purpose of the photographs is to identify the vehicle, not the driver, and it is up to the vehicle keeper to identify the driver. Having said that, sometime the photograph may help to identify the driver and it is worth asking if there is some doubt. So what you need to do is not reply to the NIP yet, write back and ask for any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver. Use those words, do NOT say anything else at all.

Asking this does not give you any more time, so be very careful not to exceed the 28 days you are allowed to reply. If the photos do not arrive in time or do not help, and you have tried every way you know to work out who the driver was, then it may be best to say who the most likely driver was. Do NOT say that is what you are doing or say there is any doubt about the driver, or you will certainly be going to court.

Would you like to tell us why there is doubt about the driver?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380983 · Replies: 9 · Views: 490

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 10 May 2018 - 09:12


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I am afraid that I regretfully agree that you have little chance of acquittal in the magistrates' court and would have to take this to appeal possibly even to the divisional court and I would not give too much for your chances there. It might be fun to try but perhaps expensive fun. You could try writing to the local newspaper to see if anyone else will come in with you, and/or make a row about it locally. One positive thing is that your own knowledge of the 20mph limit or zone in not relevant, per Coombes v DPP where question 4 of the case stated was answered in the negative.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380979 · Replies: 32 · Views: 1,835

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 9 May 2018 - 22:24


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Take the means form with you, no one will look at it unless and until it is needed for sentencing. You know what you said by way of plea, you do not need a copy sent back to you, an acknowledgement is sufficient.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380923 · Replies: 59 · Views: 2,456

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 9 May 2018 - 00:28


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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:38) *
I also need advice on the "statement of means" some of the info is quiet personal and having read other posts all day I'm still unsure on how much detail to go in to. For example do you have to state the exact occupation? NI number - not even sure I remember this anymore?! Why would they need that? Can I leave this blank or do I have to find it? It says "supply any documentary evidence which supports the info. you have provided" Should I attach a pay slip? Council tax payment proof? Credit card statement/repayment (are they the same thing)? Food and clothing receipts? Is it necessary or helpful in reducing the potential fine? Have other people attached theirs? As I am renting some of the items listed are shared between all living there so what do I quote for these expenses? I've no idea how much to put for clothes and food? Drinking? Entertainment? Has anybody got any remotely average figures that are deemed reasonable/acceptable Why would they ask for the number of adults in your home? Finally do I have to include total savings? If omitted would this have any impact on any potential fine provided the rest of the statement of means form is completed


You need to be accurate about your income because that information will be used to calculate the fine. You do not have to be too specific about your occupation, for example you can say "salesman" rather than "vacuum cleaner salesman" if it is important to you, but you may be asked if the court wants more details. You can find your NI number on your payslip or tax papers, they may need it to trace you if you get elusive when the time comes to pay a fine. Do not send documentary evidence unless specifically asked for it, in my view. Expenses can be estimated, they do not come into it unless very exceptional, but average figures would not be appropriate. Other adults might be sharing expenses, and if so put in your share not the total. Savings are to indicate your ability to pay a fine, provided you can pay immediately, they will have no impact.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380656 · Replies: 59 · Views: 2,456

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 02:36


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Up to 95 in a 70 limit you are likely to be offered a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points, if it went to court you would probably get 4 points for 92 in a 70.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380281 · Replies: 9 · Views: 636

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 02:31


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QUOTE (Claire111 @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 00:00) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 7 May 2018 - 22:24) *
If the limit was 60, then if it was not a short ban it would be 6 points. Do you have any points currently, and how long have you held a licence?
No points. Clean licence. Driving for 30 years.


Good, so there would be no other immediate consequences if you get 6 points.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380280 · Replies: 17 · Views: 896

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 7 May 2018 - 22:24


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If the limit was 60, then if it was not a short ban it would be 6 points. Do you have any points currently, and how long have you held a licence?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380264 · Replies: 17 · Views: 896

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 7 May 2018 - 00:20


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To clarify it is the date of the offence for the last offence as well, so there needs to be 3 years between the two offences, the date you did the course is not relevant.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1380114 · Replies: 8 · Views: 1,192

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 5 May 2018 - 23:16


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QUOTE (cdon1975 @ Sat, 5 May 2018 - 23:33) *
Cheers mate I have an inkling it may be for a van sold a few years ago - hence old address but not sure .. As I’m insured for absolutely anything am I required by law to add all my vehicles to the database? If it was the van I did keep a copy of the v5 as I don’t trust the post


Either you or your insurers do need to add all your vehicles to the MID, see guidance HERE.

It could be vehicle that has not been added to the MID, or a vehicle you have sold or scrapped that is still registered to you.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379976 · Replies: 12 · Views: 1,124

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 5 May 2018 - 23:06


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QUOTE (Daredevil1504 @ Sat, 5 May 2018 - 21:57) *
What do I do after I email to update that I wish to plea not guilty?


That should result in you being given a court date. Attend court on the date set. As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead Guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.


As it was your fault you did not receive the NIP, the court may not be willing to do this, but nothing is lost by asking.




  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379973 · Replies: 16 · Views: 908

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 5 May 2018 - 20:25


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Presumably you have never received reminders but have taxed the car twice, did you use the V5C/2 each time?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379933 · Replies: 16 · Views: 908

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 5 May 2018 - 19:33


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QUOTE (Daredevil1504 @ Sat, 5 May 2018 - 20:20) *
Isn't the letter delivered to the licence address? The only reason I missed the first letter was because that hadn't been updated. I would have updated my address on the V5C around the same time as the licence.


The letter cannot be sent to the licence address because the police do not know who was driving the car, they know only who the car is registered to.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379917 · Replies: 16 · Views: 908

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 5 May 2018 - 10:56


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QUOTE (122basy @ Sat, 5 May 2018 - 08:55) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 1 May 2018 - 23:49) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 1 May 2018 - 21:31) *
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 1 May 2018 - 09:27) *
QUOTE (publicenemyno1 @ Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 20:32) *
I must admit when the 'managed motorway' first opened we were led to believe the entire stretch was covered in average speed cams,
Who led you you to believe that? Managed motorways have variable speed limits, which is not something that average speed cameras can enforce, i.e. the speed limit between 2 cameras MUST be constant and continuous.
If the average speed camera set is between one VSL gantry and the next, they would be monitoring a consistent speed limit? Not saying that is in practice anywhere but cannot see any reason why it could not be.
I think that would create problems when the limit changed. Consider a car that goes under a gantry showing a 70mph limit, but as the car passes the gantry the limit is reduced to 50 mph. The driver does not know he is on a section of the road now subject to a 50mph limit, so if the average speed to be enforced is dropped to 50mph, he is liable to be penalised quite unjustly. The enforcement limit would have to be maintained at 70mph for a period to enable him to reach the next gantry, but that would mean the correct limit was not being enforced for the other traffic travelling just behind him.
Or alternately the captures in the period just after the limit changes are disregarded until vehicles passing the monitored area would not commit the offence. Average speed cameras can enforce variable limits and as long as they have a technical solution to limit changes there is no reason not to use them. Unless you are on the police enforcement technical committee advising them of your opinions I fear your naive appreciation of the capabilities of average speedmeters will not be heeded. Even if you were they would be disregarded As they stand.


I am glad you agree with me that the problem with using average speed cameras on managed motorways is coping with the situation when the limit changes and there would have to be some type of allowance made for vehicles to clear the section. I am unclear why you think our opinion is naïve.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379823 · Replies: 17 · Views: 1,713

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 3 May 2018 - 21:40


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QUOTE (Soup04 @ Thu, 3 May 2018 - 22:14) *
Hi Guys, any help appreciated. Got a Notice of Intended Prosecution from North Yorkshire Police two weeks ago. The offence ‘exceed 70mph Motorway Speed Limit’…….. ‘with recorded speed of 82 mph’. The Notice is expecting me to either admit the offence or name the driver. I did think that this was not an obligation?


Naming the driver IS an obligation and failure to do so will earn you a large fine and 6 points, and it has now been established that you must sign the document naming the driver. As stated, you should be offered a course provided you have not done one for an offence within the last 3 years.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379529 · Replies: 9 · Views: 714

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 3 May 2018 - 01:17


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QUOTE (4ken4 @ Wed, 2 May 2018 - 22:21) *
So plead guilty but to what ? The fact they clearly are not acknowledging receipt of notification we didn't own anymore...ergo fine for not updating new registered owner...or ....to no insurance despite it being fully insured untill after the van was scrapped ? Also, DVLA know the scrap dealers details..know we didn't own it at the time of infringement...they have also advised the van has been sold on ohmy.gif since. But say DPA forbids them given us any more details.


Plead guilty to the offence you are charged with, which you said was ' **** was the registered keeper on 9/11/17 and that the vehicle did not meet the statutory insurance requirements contrary to section 22 of the RTS 2006 ' You cannot plead guilty to an offence you have not been charged with!

As I said above, it is NOT relevant that you did not own the van on 9/11/17, you were the registered keeper

It is also NOT relevant that you did insure the van in the past.

And it is NOT relevant that the scrap dealer sold the van on.

The only thing that IS relevant is that on 9/11/17 the van was not insured and not on SORN and you were the registered keeper.

If you had any evidence that you had informed the DVLA that you had sold the van to the scrapper, then it would be worth going to court and defending this, but you have none.

You do now need to tell the DVLA that you have sold the van, and make sure you get an acknowledgement, or this may happen again, or you will done for no road tax, or somebody may bodge it up and put it back on the road without registering it and commit various offences and all the notifications will come to you.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379287 · Replies: 11 · Views: 1,353

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 2 May 2018 - 15:23


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QUOTE (4ken4 @ Wed, 2 May 2018 - 15:54) *
So to admit guilt on the SJPN form then, even though we can prove the van wasn't ours at that time ? Fine and points for a vehicle we didn't have seems so unfair


But you were the registered keeper, and the obligation is on the registered keeper not the owner. There is a lot of bureaucracy involved with vehicles and unless you keep on top of it you pay the penalty. There are also a lot of people trying to bend the rules, at the time the continuous insurance obligation was introduced it was estimated that 30% on the cars on the road were uninsured, so you do not get the benefit of the doubt, otherwise everyone would do it, goes the argument.

By the way there will be no points for this offence, just a fine.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379183 · Replies: 11 · Views: 1,353

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 2 May 2018 - 14:33


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Well you could try appealing to the DVLA on the basis that you did notify them by letter that the vehicle had been scrapped, but I expect that they will reply that you should have notified them when you did not receive an acknowledgement of that letter. If you opt to go to court they would say the same, and it is then up to the court who to believe. There is of course no legal obligation on you to notify them if you do not receive an acknowledgement.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379172 · Replies: 11 · Views: 1,353

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 2 May 2018 - 13:14


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QUOTE (4ken4 @ Wed, 2 May 2018 - 13:07) *
We wrote to DVLA to declare the scrapage.


When did you do that, and did you get a postage receipt and keep a copy?

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379158 · Replies: 11 · Views: 1,353

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 1 May 2018 - 22:49


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 1 May 2018 - 21:31) *
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 1 May 2018 - 09:27) *
QUOTE (publicenemyno1 @ Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 20:32) *
I must admit when the 'managed motorway' first opened we were led to believe the entire stretch was covered in average speed cams,
Who led you you to believe that? Managed motorways have variable speed limits, which is not something that average speed cameras can enforce, i.e. the speed limit between 2 cameras MUST be constant and continuous.
If the average speed camera set is between one VSL gantry and the next, they would be monitoring a consistent speed limit? Not saying that is in practice anywhere but cannot see any reason why it could not be.


I think that would create problems when the limit changed. Consider a car that goes under a gantry showing a 70mph limit, but as the car passes the gantry the limit is reduced to 50 mph. The driver does not know he is on a section of the road now subject to a 50mph limit, so if the average speed to be enforced is dropped to 50mph, he is liable to be penalised quite unjustly. The enforcement limit would have to be maintained at 70mph for a period to enable him to reach the next gantry, but that would mean the correct limit was not being enforced for the other traffic travelling just behind him.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379042 · Replies: 17 · Views: 1,713

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 1 May 2018 - 22:30


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Unfortunately there is little you can do about this as the offering of courses is entirely at the discretion of the police, and if they say they will not offer you one, then that is the end of the matter. Now it has actually gone to court it is too late for a course or a fixed penalty. The best you can do is to reply pleading guilty, which you do not dispute, and in the mitigation section state that you were not offered a course or a fixed penalty which would have been usual for this level of speeding. Say that although the police say that letters making the offer were sent to you, you never received them. Request the court to follow their guidance in such cases and sentence you at the rate equivalent to a fixed penalty. That will still give you 3 points, but will have a financial cost of £100 which is much lower than the normal level in court.

The actual wording of the guidance is:

•where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1379036 · Replies: 6 · Views: 1,098

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 1 May 2018 - 08:31


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I think you have a problem if you were merely carrying the trade plates and not displaying them. Presumably you were picked up by an ANPR camera, so had no chance to whip out the trade plates as you would if stopped by a human bean. You could try an appeal, attaching a copy of the trade plate confirmation, but if there is a discount for early payment it would not be worth putting that at risk.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1378806 · Replies: 13 · Views: 942

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 09:36


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As it was your car and you know that one of you was definitely driving, the pragmatic thin is to name the most likely driver. As pointed out above, this is very different from deliberately naming the wrong driver, and is the best you can do in the circumstances. Trying to defend a s.172 charge in court is legally sound but a perilous business, in effect saying to the court, "Yes, one of us was driving but we have no way of knowing which one, so you have to let us off." That may succeed, and perhaps should more often than it does, but it is definitely a risky procedure. The cost of failure is high, with a heavy fine, 6 points and increased insurance premiums. By far the safest course is to name the most likely driver who should then be offered a course if eligible, or a fixed penalty if not.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1378546 · Replies: 7 · Views: 742

Logician
Posted on: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 19:09


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1. Is the picture definitely of the car shared by you and your partner, could the number plate be mis-read?
2. Could anyone other than you or your partner have been driving the car?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1378432 · Replies: 7 · Views: 742

Logician
Posted on: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 18:01


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Ask for a copy of any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver, do not mention evidence. Most forces will supply these and they may well be those that show your speed. Note that this does not extend the time you have to identify the driver, do not risk exceeding that.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1378418 · Replies: 9 · Views: 645

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