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Donald Trump
MFM
post Tue, 1 Nov 2016 - 16:11
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The next US president. happy.gif
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post Tue, 1 Nov 2016 - 16:11
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Fredd
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:14
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QUOTE (MFM @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:09) *
Still so much Trump hate after all his achievements. He will go down as one of the best presidents in US history!

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Just say no. Particularly before typing.


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Redivi
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 23:11) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:21) *
it wont have as big a proportional effect in most the midterms as the constituency boundaries are heavily gerrymandered

Trump's also packed the Supreme Court with consequences that will last for many years

As a result, it's not illegal to have policies that remove mainly Democrat voters from the voting registers
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cour...g-idUSKBN1J71QQ

One out of nine is "packing the court" is it?

--Churchmouse

It only needs one out of nine
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The Rookie
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 18:22
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QUOTE (MFM @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 12:09) *
Still so much Trump hate after all his achievements. He will go down as one of the best presidents in US history!

What achievements exactly? No he won’t.


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Redivi
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 23:26
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It's sometimes hard to tell if a post is irony or not
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ManxRed
post Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 12:00
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Yeah, I thought that was a joke.

Although Trump should be applauded for at least partially addressing the problem of too many actual Human Rights abusers from being members of the UN Human Rights Council by removing one of the biggest culprits himself.

Well done, sir!


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The Rookie
post Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 12:16
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 13:00) *
Yeah, I thought that was a joke.

The trouble is that Trump is so polarising a Trump supporter will say that, the other 65% of the population will not.


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captain swoop
post Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 22:41
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President’s Executive Order will continue zero-tolerance policy on illegal border crossings, but allow families to remain together.
Just days ago Trump was specific, he said that he couldn't sign an executive order to stop families from being separated.
I wonder what changed?

"The president added that the move will be compassionate but will also be 'equally tough if not tougher.'"

He's admitting that it's an escalation. He is going to detain them for the full immigration proceedings that can take years. He's going to get the army to build new camps.
It's not a capitulation it's a tactical withdrawal to stronger ground.

Big camps built by the army to house detainees for years.

But don't worry there's going to be a new 'Space Force'
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Churchmouse
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 00:08
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 14:11) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 23:11) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:21) *
it wont have as big a proportional effect in most the midterms as the constituency boundaries are heavily gerrymandered

Trump's also packed the Supreme Court with consequences that will last for many years

As a result, it's not illegal to have policies that remove mainly Democrat voters from the voting registers
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cour...g-idUSKBN1J71QQ

One out of nine is "packing the court" is it?

--Churchmouse

It only needs one out of nine

In the US, "packing the Court" has a very specific meaning, which apparently you were not aware of. It refers to a plan or threat to appoint multiple new justices in order to force through a particular point of view or legal interpretation that is not currently being upheld by the Court. Obviously, it would be difficult to "pack the court" if the president's only ever appointed one justice out of nine (and that was to fill an existing vacancy, rather than a new one).

In other news, Trump has now decided that enforcing the law as written just isn't going to play well, so he's decided to jail the children along with their parents. Not sure if he's asking the AG to prosecute them as well, or just confine them indefinitely without charge. Well done righteous campaigners! Hard to believe this was the intended consequence of all that media and political attention, though...

--Churchmouse
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The Rookie
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 08:40
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 23:41) *
President’s Executive Order will continue zero-tolerance policy on illegal border crossings, but allow families to remain together.
Just days ago Trump was specific, he said that he couldn't sign an executive order to stop families from being separated.
I wonder what changed?

Nothing except that GOP candidates looking at Novembers elections realised that if Trump continued with the lie they would be stuffed and stopping a democrat held house starting impeachment proceedings would be a bit harder than if they held the whip hand. It didn't even need an Executive order it just needed a change of government policy, the same Policy they implemented in the first place causing the issue.

In summary, yes Mr President you can carry on doing this and be impeached in January, or don't and you may not be.

Also Melania coming out against her husband could well have been seen as a thin end of a Stormy wedge if he didn't bow to that pressure.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 08:41


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captain swoop
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 22:04
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QUOTE
First Lady Melania Trump has been criticised for the choice of her jacket worn on a trip to a migrant child detention centre in Texas.
Mrs Trump was spotted in the jacket, which featured graffiti writing on the back with the words "I really don't care do u?", as she boarded a plane.
Her spokeswoman said "there was no hidden message" in the former fashion model's sartorial choice.


No hidden message.
No of course not, it was there plain to see.
If it wasn't deliberate she is very poorly advised and incredibly stupid.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44570688

Trump just tweeted


"“I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?” written on the back of Melania’s jacket, refers to the Fake News Media. Melania has learned how dishonest they are, and she truly no longer cares!"


Didn't the White House spokesperson just say there was no hidden meaning?

Who do we believe? I wish he would make his mind up.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 00:18
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It's the hypocrisy combined with the cowardice that galls me. The hypocrisy is that Trump's (former) policy was the subject of furious intergalactic condemnation, but those same people have had not a peep to say about all of the other children who are routinely separated from their parents when said adults are arrested for any other kind of criminal activity elsewhere in the United States and (I'd guess) anywhere else in the developed world). Apparently, that's perfectly okay.

The cowardice is that the real reason for the hypocrisy is never admitted: That people illegally crossing the US-Mexico border (but only with children, for some reason) should be exempt from criminal prosecution and either deported without charge or perhaps allowed to roam freely within the country. It is simply a disagreement about whether illegal border crossing should be enforced in the same way as other crimes, or whether it should not be enforced at all. So why not admit it?

--Churchmouse
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The Rookie
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 07:38
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 23:04) *
"“I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?” written on the back of Melania’s jacket, refers to the Fake News Media. Melania has learned how dishonest they are, and she truly no longer cares!"


Didn't the White House spokesperson just say there was no hidden meaning?

It was a first ladies office spokesperson that said that, not a white house one.

I see it as Melania having a dig at Trump for not caring in the best way she can without saying it outright, the very fact she visited the centres I see as a dig at the Chump. She's stayed quite over the Daniels/McDougal (plus about 15 others lining up) issue but she doesn't seem overly happy with her husband.

As an aside, has Melania's true immigration status been confirmed? There was a hint (from her own statements in interviews) that at one point she entered the US illegally (Tourist visa while working as a model), that would mean her eventual permanent status would be declared null and void retrospectively (under normal US protocol), in which case she could have been detained and Baron sent to one of the wire walled centres........


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Fredd
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 10:02
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 01:18) *
It is simply a disagreement about whether illegal border crossing should be enforced in the same way as other crimes, or whether it should not be enforced at all. So why not admit it?

Because that's not the issue.

The policy was deliberately enacted to be punitive and act as a deterrent (as well as playing to Trump's political base) - a punishment that applied not only to illegal migrants, but also legitimate asylum seekers, incidentally. At the point when the children are removed the parents haven't even been charged or convicted of a crime, yet because all the adults in the group are imprisoned there's nobody who can care for the children, so they're immediately separated from their parents. That's not an accident, that's the harsh effect the policy was designed to have.

In the case of domestic criminals it will usually be one parent locked up, they will generally be bailed until convisted, and if not will generally have a family or other support network to care for a child. Obviously there will be cases of single mothers with no family able or willing to help, but that won't be the norm, and the state taking the child into care wouldn't be an intentional and vindictive act of punishment.

Does that help?


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captain swoop
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 10:44
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remember a few months back, the House and Senate leaders of the Democrats had signed off an a bipartisan deal which would have, among other things, funded Trump’s Wall, only to have Trump blow it up at the last minute because his pet Nazi Miller didn’t find it sufficiently horrible.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 23:38
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:02) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 01:18) *
It is simply a disagreement about whether illegal border crossing should be enforced in the same way as other crimes, or whether it should not be enforced at all. So why not admit it?

Because that's not the issue.

The policy was deliberately enacted to be punitive and act as a deterrent (as well as playing to Trump's political base) - a punishment that applied not only to illegal migrants, but also legitimate asylum seekers, incidentally. At the point when the children are removed the parents haven't even been charged or convicted of a crime, yet because all the adults in the group are imprisoned there's nobody who can care for the children, so they're immediately separated from their parents. That's not an accident, that's the harsh effect the policy was designed to have.

In the case of domestic criminals it will usually be one parent locked up, they will generally be bailed until convisted, and if not will generally have a family or other support network to care for a child. Obviously there will be cases of single mothers with no family able or willing to help, but that won't be the norm, and the state taking the child into care wouldn't be an intentional and vindictive act of punishment.

Does that help?

No, but this does:



Apparently, exploiting traumatised children to score political points can also be helpful. (If you don't know the story behind this photo and the TIME cover, it makes interesting reading.)

Incidentally, I am only referring to alleged illegal immigrants: people accused of breaking the immigration laws. I don't know if the previous, current or future Trump policies also applied to "legitimate asylum seekers", but it strikes me as unlikely that the US government treats people it considers to be "legitimate asylum seekers" in the same way it treats people it accuses of having committed criminal acts. Certainly, many of the accounts I have read about recent detainees suggests that many of them have no idea what a "legitimate asylum seeker" is, so I will have to take that claim with a pinch of salt.

Criminal laws are generally designed to be "punitive and act as a deterrent", so it is hardly surprising that the enforcement of these particular laws has that effect. It is unfortunate that, unlike most people who break laws, the people breaking these particular laws often do so whilst accompanied by their children and in circumstances in which there are no (uninvolved) obvious relatives who can take custody of their children, but the law does not currently treat these situations differently. Perhaps it should? I have no problem with changing the law if that is what the people want. My objection is to the shameless dishonesty, which is now so commonplace in political discourse today. (And no, and I hope obviously, I do not exclude Trump or anyone involved with him from that assessment.)

--Churchmouse
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Redivi
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 09:32
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So this is why America withdrew from the Human Rights Council
Nothing to do with its criticism of Israel

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/am...n-a8411676.html
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Fredd
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 09:35
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If they do make an asylum claim they're still being locked up while it's considered, with the same effect. And let's bear in mind that this draconian system (if scrabbling around to try to implement a random executive order can be considered to be a system) isn't to deter some heinous crime that carries a severe penalty if convicted, illegally crossing the border is a misdemeanor, invariably punished just by time spent in detention before deportation - which can be as little as a day.

This isn't a simple problem to solve, and lashing around with simplistic "solutions" like walling the country off or imprisoning every illegal border crosser is bound to result in ill-considered side effects, as it has here. Is it stupidity, a complete lack of empathy, or a lack of humanity? I don't know, but it's deeply unpleasant.


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Churchmouse
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 23:54
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 10:32) *
So this is why America withdrew from the Human Rights Council
Nothing to do with its criticism of Israel

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/am...n-a8411676.html

As far as the UN goes, if it's not the Security Council doing something, it's effectively nothing. The rest of the UN, and its thousands upon thousands of international hangers-on, is powerless, often hysterically biased, and really not worth the global warming that results from the copious hot air they spew.

Because the news reports are so thin, I decided to look into Swoop's story further. As it turns out, this latest statement comes from the very same UN human rights mechanism (a group of independent "experts" affiliated with the UNHRC and organised into the "Working Group on Arbitrary Detention") that decided in 2016 that Julian Assange was being "arbitrarily detained" in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London by the United Kingdom and Sweden--despite his being completely free to leave at any time. These people have zero credibility--and that's before one considers their alleged Israel problem. In other words, if the Trump administration was quaking in its boots about yet another pontificating statement from the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention, they're dumber than even you thought.

--Churchmouse
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stamfordman
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 13:42
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Trump has just flown over our house in some large copter thing escorted by two small helicopters. Very low - could almost reach with our hose pipe.
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Steve_999
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 13:45
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 14:42) *
Trump has just flown over our house in some large copter thing escorted by two small helicopters. Very low - could almost reach with our hose pipe.


And why didn't you?
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