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51J - Failure to comply with no entry sign, Decriminalised in London
Plywood-Enthusia...
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 13:32
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Hi

I go a 51J notice, have just 1 and a half day to come up with an appeal and send it off to make an appeal within the discount period.

Got lost after having to make a diversion due to roadworks, led into side road into a neighbourhood with a series of 1 way roads. Drove around ages trying to get out. I saw the main road I needed to be straight on from where I was driving. But the middle bit was a one way no-entry road, one of the sign was obscured by leaves from the tree. So I missed it. As I passed the line I saw the no entry on the corner of my eye, stopped and reversed out. But as I had just passed the line I was still given a PCN. Jobsworth wouldn't cut me some slack. I have attached the video here as well.







Video link; http://www.karimium.com/pcn/video.mp4
^^^VIDEO LINK^^^^^


Picture of one of the signs covered



Some of their evidences:



This post has been edited by Plywood-Enthusiast: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 13:35
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post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 13:32
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 15:27
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I think an adjudicator would cut you some slack but then they don't want your money.


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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 15:51
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I think so too. But ideally want to get this cancelled on first appeal as I really don't want the hassle of writing a formal appeal to adjudicator and going to a hearing.

I read from googling 51J that these no-entry signs MUST be on either side of the road, one sign alone will not be legally enforceable. Would having one of these signs partially covered by tree signs make the signs fall foul of the regulations?

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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 16:02
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Regardless of foliage, there is a bloomin' great tree obstructing the sign.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wilson+Gr...33;4d-0.0629296

From the photos at 15.00 the OP had not crossed the restriction--so if that time is given on the PCN is he in contravention? Just a thought.

Mick
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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 16:29
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:02) *
Regardless of foliage, there is a bloomin' great tree obstructing the sign.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wilson+Gr...33;4d-0.0629296

From the photos at 15.00 the OP had not crossed the restriction--so if that time is given on the PCN is he in contravention? Just a thought.

Mick


Thanks Mick, you're a legend.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 16:34
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OP, you are being a tad naive if you think the council are going to roll-over and cancel the PCN. The dark heart of decriminalised traffic and parking enforcement is that the councils keep the penalty money and also assess representations. So they bat-off almost all representations because the money is more important than justice. You really must be prepared to go to adjudication and forgo the discount if you want to win. When I look at the video I would immediately say "de minimis" and I would expect an adjudicator to agree with me. The only trouble is this forum cannot predict what adjudicators will decide. Fortunately London Tribunals keep an on-line appeals register, thus making it a lot easier to cite cases similar to yours.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 16:35
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 16:51
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QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:02) *
Regardless of foliage, there is a bloomin' great tree obstructing the sign.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wilson+Gr...33;4d-0.0629296

From the photos at 15.00 the OP had not crossed the restriction--so if that time is given on the PCN is he in contravention? Just a thought.

Mick


Thanks Mick, you're a legend.


No I am not, it was a question by me to others who might have a case which gives credence to my suggestion.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 16:58
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I agree with inc, not much hope of getting the council to cancel but then I agree with Mick re the time on the PCN Adjudicators have both accepted and rejected this argument but in a de minimis case like this I could see them for it


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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:02
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:34) *
OP, you are being a tad naive if you think the council are going to roll-over and cancel the PCN. The dark heart of decriminalised traffic and parking enforcement is that the councils keep the penalty money and also assess representations. So they bat-off almost all representations because the money is more important than justice. You really must be prepared to go to adjudication and forgo the discount if you want to win. When I look at the video I would immediately say "de minimis" and I would expect an adjudicator to agree with me. The only trouble is this forum cannot predict what adjudicators will decide. Fortunately London Tribunals keep an on-line appeals register, thus making it a lot easier to cite cases similar to yours.


Ive had good experience with getting my initial representations accepted. Maybe my experience was unique. I just want an easier life and get this revoked on first attempt, but for the sake of £65 I am absolutely willing to fight it at tribunals.

Preparing all your evidence for tribunal takes time, making time to go into central london, paying parking etc costs time and money. So I'd rather get a water tight appeal in at first go than to just expect it to be slapped down and make a half arsed attempt at it.

So I'd like to overwhelm them with evidence on representation that they will look silly rejecting it, and look like they are wasting the tribunals time.



This post has been edited by Plywood-Enthusiast: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:06
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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:20
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:34) *
You really must be prepared to go to adjudication and forgo the discount if you want to win.


I'm just curious, do you have to forgo the discount now? If you send in your representation within the discount period, isn't the discount still available to you if the tribunal doesn't go your way?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:34
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QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 18:20) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:34) *
You really must be prepared to go to adjudication and forgo the discount if you want to win.


I'm just curious, do you have to forgo the discount now? If you send in your representation within the discount period, isn't the discount still available to you if the tribunal doesn't go your way?


The discount is mandated to be allowed for 14 days beginning with the date of notice. Anything beyond that is at the behest of the council.

By all means make all points but remember an adjudicator would see your representations so if you must make them as if you are making an appeal, then you only have to add anything that pops up from the NoR .

Incidentally since the TSRGD 2016 only one sign is required so your argument would need to be along the lines of if two are placed then the council must think two are needed


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Earl Purple
post Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 07:45
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If you had turned right into there the signage may well have been obscured but it appears you continued straight ahead where to me it appears the sign on the right is very clear to you.

So I'm not so certain you can claim it was hard to see.
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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 12:00
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:51) *
QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 17:02) *
Regardless of foliage, there is a bloomin' great tree obstructing the sign.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wilson+Gr...33;4d-0.0629296

From the photos at 15.00 the OP had not crossed the restriction--so if that time is given on the PCN is he in contravention? Just a thought.

Mick


Thanks Mick, you're a legend.


No I am not, it was a question by me to others who might have a case which gives credence to my suggestion.

Mick


Well, it looks like you were right after all. I sent in my representation bluffed it like I knew what I was talking about and just said "the regulations state that the vehicle must pass the sign, while the vehicle did pass the line, it did not pass the sign" therefore no contravention occurred. of course, I didn't really know it, I guess there is credence to that. They accepted my representation as a "goodwill gesture", more than likely it's because I didn't actually break the 51J rule.

I also sent in the pics of one of the sign covered by foliage and made a point of mentioning that - they didn't respond to that. I presume they would not have entertained that and insisted on upholding the PCN on that basis.



This post has been edited by Plywood-Enthusiast: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 12:01
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 19:16
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Its a s36 sign so the contravention is against passing that, not a line


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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:16) *
Its a s36 sign so the contravention is against passing that, not a line


Why didn't you say that before, when I was writing my appeal? Car didn't pass the sign, case closed. Is all I needed to hear.
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Parker1994
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:50
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.

This post has been edited by Parker1994: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:56
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 21:44
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QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 21:33) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:16) *
Its a s36 sign so the contravention is against passing that, not a line


Why didn't you say that before, when I was writing my appeal? Car didn't pass the sign, case closed. Is all I needed to hear.


and an council bod takes exception to the arrogant tone and rejects then an adjudicator makes a finding of fact that the front of your car did pass the sign case closed pay up.

You wanted to win without going to tribunal so I would say the advice you recieved was correct


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