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New PCN for Motoring violation, Another 50JL with address issues
Dexx99
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 15:21
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Hi Guys,

Unfortunately, a new motoring violation, but this time received the PCN (DON: 19.03.19) after initial issue to Lex Autolease around 15.01.19.

One thing to Note Address Line1 was a bit inaccurate. I have left the number in and blanked out the rest on the images FYI.

The format as sent was: 4 4 <STREET NAME>

However, should be: 4 <HOUSE NAME> <STREET NAME>

Would the inaccuracy open up a chance for an easy technical appeal with LT?

If you advise not, I may just pay within discounted period to focus on Appeal with LT (registered today) on my other post.

PCN - PAGE1


PCN PAGE2
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post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 15:21
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peterguk
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 17:35
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QUOTE (Dexx99 @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 15:21) *
Would the inaccuracy open up a chance for an easy technical appeal with LT?

What information did Lex supply the LA? Don't assume they supplied the correct information. Find out.


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Dexx99
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 19:12
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Will verify and post back.
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Dexx99
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 23:23
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I verified with Lex Autolease and they confirmed the correct address was submitted to LBOE, so defo address is mistake wholly on part on LBOE.


So, will this be enough to appeal this PCN as no other grounds I assume?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 23:32
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How did you receive the PCN, via post or some other way?


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Dexx99
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 21:48
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The PCN came by post.

However, since there are only 15 flats at my post code it was logical that number "44" was actually for No.4 and my name would've helped too.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 27 Mar 2019 - 10:22
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Pl explain further. You can use fictitious street and house names.

For example, 4 Penalty Court, Adjudication Road is not the same as 44 Adjudication Road.

Do you have a shared letterbox? If so, then if Penalty Court is no. 44 i.e. 4 Penalty Court, 44 Adjudication Road, then with a shared letterbox an adj might turn a blind eye.

I love this part of your account: 'my name would've helped too.' Why? The post person thinks aha, he's got another one, I know where this serial law breaker lives!

The PCN must contain correct info, not deficient info whch relies on the deductive powers of the Royal Mail.





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Dexx99
post Wed, 27 Mar 2019 - 13:01
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 27 Mar 2019 - 10:22) *
Pl explain further. You can use fictitious street and house names.

For example, 4 Penalty Court, Adjudication Road is not the same as 44 Adjudication Road.

E.G. 4 Penalty House, The Avenue . However, was addressed 44, The Avenue

Do you have a shared letterbox? If so, then if Penalty Court is no. 44 i.e. 4 Penalty Court, 44 Adjudication Road, then with a shared letterbox an adj might turn a blind eye.

No, not a shared mailbox there are separate mailboxes for all apartments in my block.

I love this part of your account: 'my name would've helped too.' Why? The post person thinks aha, he's got another one, I know where this serial law breaker lives!
Just my observation how it must have got to me by post despite the discrepancy. biggrin.gif

The PCN must contain correct info, not deficient info which relies on the deductive powers of the Royal Mail.


So, From you last statement I might as well take the risk to challenge rather than pay at the discounted amount of £65 available until 01.04.19?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 27 Mar 2019 - 13:38
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What is the number of the named block (assuming it is numbered)?
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Dexx99
post Thu, 28 Mar 2019 - 11:26
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The block is not numbered as is just called something like "Penalty House". Each block in my private development has it's own unique similar name.
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Dexx99
post Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 19:23
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It'll be 14 days since DON on 1st April so discounted period will end. Grateful for your advise on what is best next step tactically?

I'm thinking to make representations against incorrect address within 28 days. Thereafter, If I get served NOR I get another 14 days at discounted rate to pay or can make appeal to LT at risk of full fine?



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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 20:41
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For a PCN to be properly served it must first be properly addressed. Though there is a risk that an adjudicator would allow the PCN to stand under the slip rule


I have a case on file where the council pursued a PCN where the driver entered an O instead of a 0 if that cannot be allowed then nor can a entering 44 instead of 4 IMO


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Dexx99
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 14:42
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My 28 days will elapse shortly to make representation on Monday 15th April as DON was 19.03.19 .

Any tips to make representations on-line to LBOE before deadline would be appreciated on the basis of PCN served with incorrect postal address.
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 18:01
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The trouble you face is that there is no requirement under the legislation for a PCN to bear the address of the recipient. What if the address were printed on the envelope and the PCN just had your name, would the PCN be invalid? Clearly not, as nothing in the reflations say anything about the PCN bearing any address at all.

If the PCN had gone astray, you'd have a good case, but as in practice the PCN was served at the correct address, and the duty of the council is to effect service, on the face of it the council has discharged its obligations. So to say the least, it could go either way at the tribunal.

Tactically, your best bet is to challenge on the contravention and not mention the address issue at all, and then hope the Royal Mail doesn't delivery the Notice of Rejection. For now, show us the video and give us a link to the location on google street view.

As for the discount, consider that in almost all cases the council will re-offer it anyway to dissuade you from appealing to the tribunal.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Dexx99
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 20:10
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I have ordered the video footage on-line, but may take up to 24 hours.

However, you will find the Latitude and Longitude image available straight away below as well as Google Street View.



No Left Turn Location

I have to submit any representation by the end of the 28 day deadline which I presume has to be by end of day on 15.04.19. Thanks!

Just to add it is a road I know, but hadn't visited for a while. Stupidly mind was on automatic and didn't notice the new "No Left turn" sign.
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cp8759
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 20:17
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The deadline is 17 April as the period runs from the date of service of the notice, rather than the date of issue. I still don't see any real grounds of challenge but as the discount is gone, you might as well make a representation about the address being wrong, you never know they might cancel and even if they don't they're still likely to re-offer the discount.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 01:16
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2180447743(edited by me)

The Council rely upon the evidence of their civil enforcement officer who has recorded an observation period of five minutes and that no resident or visitor parking permit was seen and that there was no valid or pay-and-display ticket displayed. The Council assert that, having considered the Appellant's documentation, the incorrect vehicle registration mark MTO 4EKK – using the letter "O" was entered by the Appellant, whereas the correct registration Mark is with a zero "0".
 
While the Council are correct that the obligation to enter the correct details is on the motorist, I am concerned as to the lawful issue of the penalty charge notice in this case. The officer has recorded that the penalty charge notice was "ATV" – attached to vehicle. In the notes he asserts that "the driver removed the PCN". At paragraph 22 of their case summary the Council assert that the PCN was issued and "handed to the driver of the vehicle". In contrast, the Appellant states in his notice of appeal that no PCN was placed on his car as can be seen in all the photographs.
 
Bearing in mind the conflicting evidence as to the issue of the penalty charge notice, I am not persuaded that the Council has discharged the burden that the penalty charge notice was lawfully issued in this case.




What's sauce for the goose and all that


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Dexx99
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 17:23
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Thanks guys will just make representations as nothing to loose.

As you say will most likely be rejected, but at least will get further time to pay and possibly at discounted again.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 17:36
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The trouble you face is that there is no requirement under the legislation for a PCN to bear the address of the recipient.


??

Just because it's not spelled out doesn't mean it's not there.

It's captured in ' 2)Transport for London or, as the case may be, the relevant borough council may serve a penalty charge notice—', to do which they have to comply either with the Interpretation Act or, if otherwise specified, with the regs.

If the regs are silent, the IA takes precedence:

7 References to service by post.

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

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cp8759
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 17:48
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But the OP can hardly turn up at the tribunal and say he wasn't served: he did get the PCN so as a matter of fact he was served. I don't see much chance of an adjudicator ruling that service is invalid in these circumstances. It's not impossible, but it is very unlikely.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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