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SIP NTK Received, Appeal
cpu2007
post Thu, 20 Oct 2016 - 15:16
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hi everyone

I hope someone can help me with this.

I have received an NTK from SIP for not appealing/paying for a parking charge notice.
This was given to me for not paying. This was paid by phone but because i paid by the phone service and was a bit late, I did it while going to work.
the paybyphone service was throwing a server error, I've tried a couple of times and it didn't work then I tried after half an hour and it worked and it worked.
However, when i returned I had the ticket.

Can I challenge this?

I didn't challenge the penalty charge notice and when I received the NTK they said I had no ground for appeal.
This is what I sent them:

QUOTE
Dear Sir or Madam,

This is my formal representation to SIP Parking Limited in regards to the Parking Charge Notice I have received for the following date: 19/10/2016
The Parking Charge Notice that I am appealing against is the following: ***

After receiving the Notice to Keeper (NTK) I have realised that the Parking Charge Notice you’re trying to enforce doesn’t comply with the protection of freedom act, therefore there is no keeper liability for the following reasons:

(a) The notice doesn’t specify the period of parking to which the charges relate.
(b) The outstanding tariff to which the charges relate,

Additionally, I would like to have photographic evidence showing where the car was parked and the period the Civil Enforcement Officer waited before issuing the ticket.


I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours faithfully

Their reply:
QUOTE
Dear Sir,

Please be advised, you have no ability to appeal, we have considered your email on the basis of extenuating circumstances and find no grounds to cancel the charge based on the points raised.

We suggest that you re-read the notice to keeper provided, within the documentation you will find the information you state is not enclosed.

No photographic evidence relevant with the keeper, the PCN will continue its normal recovery action.

Kind regards


What should I do ?

Thanks


PS:

I've attached the nTK document too.









This post has been edited by cpu2007: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 - 15:23
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cpu2007
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 20:13
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Thank you , I understand what you're saying about 18,19,20 now, I'll remove them.

Is it necessary to take in person, I have the manchester court email, I was thinking of sending them the PDF version of it? wouldn't that the best way to do it?

Is the schedule of cost like this ok?

QUOTE
Schedule of Costs
The following cost have occurred:
Day off work to go to court: 8 hours X £13 = £103
Journey to Manchester on the court date: 15 miles each way ,30 miles x 0.45p = £13.5
Various postage: £10
Parking at the court £5
LIP hours: 15 hours x 19ph = £285
Total: £416


This post has been edited by cpu2007: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 20:27
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Umkomaas
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 20:32
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Max costs for time off work - £95. Take payslips with you to prove earnings level to show the judge.
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 20:46
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QUOTE
Is it necessary to take in person, I have the manchester court email, I was thinking of sending them the PDF version of it? wouldn't that the best way to do it?


NO.

Some courts have a maximum printing cap, after which they will not print any more. Imagine if they printed just half your evidence.

A file, in person, imagine the Judge flicking through it and being impressed by your preparation & evidence organisation. We know what we are doing!

BTW although Manchester is normally a good court someone who grabbed a defence and ran, on MSE this year (who didn't get help with WS or pre-hearing preparation to speak of, so was not fully coached but still should have won) reported a loss and a daft judge who offered the PPC the chance to argue the charge was for TRESPASS.

So wallop in a line pointing out that in Beavis it was made clear that ParkingEye could not have succeeded in a claim under the tort of trespass so that is not an option in the event that SIP try this at the hearing.

Strictly speaking this should go into your skeleton argument to take along on the day as your defence crib sheet.

Beavis Quotes:

97. ''ParkingEye concedes that the £85 is payable upon a breach of contract, and that it is not a pre-estimate of damages. As it was not the owner of the car park, ParkingEye could not recover damages, unless it was in possession, in which case it may be able to recover a small amount of damages for trespass.''

and Lord Mance at 190:

''Mr Beavis... was being given a licence, on conditions, and he would have been a trespasser if he overstayed or failed to comply with its other conditions. By promising ParkingEye not to overstay and to comply with its other conditions, Mr Beavis gave ParkingEye a right, which it would not otherwise have had, to enforce such conditions against him in contract.''
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cpu2007
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 21:20
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I understand what you're saying, in this case I'll commute to the court tomorrow and file everything. Finger crossed . thank you so much for helping me with this. will keep you guys up to date.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 07:56
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Good luck with all this - remember, anything that simpoly isnt evidence - like no actual signs, just a mock u - you need to point out the court on the day. Add to that, the person who signed (they didnt write it...) the witness statement also likely wont be there, and even if the person WAS there, they likely have never been to the site - it makes all their "evidence" shaky. ABSOLUTELY you need to point out that payment WAS made by the app, for that registration, on previous occcasions - meaning they have lied in a WS, signed under a statement of truth - or they are incompetent. Either way, another nail in the coffin of their evidence!
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cpu2007
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 15:19
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Thank you so much, I really hope it goes all well. You guys have all been wonderful so finger crossed.

I will point that out, have already made that point clear in the WS and will make sure it gets heard as well as the points you've suggested about the mock ups.

I have filed the documents in person to the court today as advised.

Thanks
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cpu2007
post Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 15:04
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Hi just wanted to give an update on this case.
The judge ruled in the claimant's favour.
He said that because the terms on the sign post clearly stated that I should have paid before leaving the car park, the fact that the app wasn't working it's irrelevant as I shouldn't have parked if it wasn't working.

A few days after I received a letter from the court stating the amount to pay but I don't know what account to it too as I didn't get any details from the claimant.

Do i have to contact the claimant or wait for them to contact me? I am asking this because during the hearing the judge said I have 14 days to pay.

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ostell
post Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 15:12
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That's a rubbish judegment

You pay the claimant by sending a cheque to them.
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cpu2007
post Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 16:16
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yes but in the judgement I have not been sent any details ,address or account number, neither I have been contacted by the claimant afterwards asking me what account I need to send the money/check to.

Do I contact the claimant and ask for those details or do I contact the court and ask for those details?
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cabbyman
post Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 16:35
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The claimant's address would have been on the original claim form.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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ManxRed
post Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 17:38
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QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 15:04) *
He said that because the terms on the sign post clearly stated that I should have paid before leaving the car park, the fact that the app wasn't working it's irrelevant as I shouldn't have parked if it wasn't working.


If you should have paid before leaving, how would you possibly have known when you arrived that the app didn't work, and hence have the opportunity of deciding whether to park or leave?

That makes no sense whatsoever.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Jlc
post Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 17:52
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 17:38) *
QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 15:04) *
He said that because the terms on the sign post clearly stated that I should have paid before leaving the car park, the fact that the app wasn't working it's irrelevant as I shouldn't have parked if it wasn't working.


If you should have paid before leaving, how would you possibly have known when you arrived that the app didn't work, and hence have the opportunity of deciding whether to park or leave?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

It's a catch 22. The Judge had a point, but not the point - the tariff was paid.

It's one of these technical breaches which can be a lottery at court. But it could be argued that if the OP left the car/carpark before paying then they had accepted the terms on the signage. (Which was a £100 parking charge...)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 28 Dec 2017 - 23:19
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Send a cheque to them, made out to their company. You have the claim form details.
Include a receipt for them to sign and SAE to send to court to confirm youve paid it.
Or just call them to find bank details to pay online, and send a receipt yourself

The court MUST BE TOLD within the month (or whatever time you have) otherwise your credit is screwed. That’s all you must ensure.
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cpu2007
post Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 15:07
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Thank you , I will do as advised.
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cpu2007
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:26
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I checked the NTK there's no bank details and the check is prefileld which means I can't put the amount ordered by the judge.
I tried their website but doesn't allow me to make the payment online
I contacted gladstools but it's been a week and they haven't replied back.
i have sent an email today to manchester court,sipcarparks and gladstools (including all in the same email) explaining them that I attempted to make the payment as well as contact them to get information on how to make the payment but have yet to receive a reply.


What should I do?

Thanks
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Jlc
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 15:44
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Can you not send a cheque as previously advised?

You have the address and name of the claimant and the amount to pay.

Take a copy of the cheque/covering letter and get free proof of posting from PO.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 15:44


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cpu2007
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 16:08
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I don't actually have a cheque book, never used them so didn't need it so was looking for the fastest way to make the payment. I'll go to the bank tomorrow and see what to do
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panther12
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:47
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Claimant should notify court if it's paid within the month so judgment can be removed from the registar but keep an eye on your credit rating as they don't always inform court and you have to do it yourself showing proof of when paid. The claim form should include claimants address & contact details where corrospondance should be sent so if they've not provided an alternative I would use that. I would ask for their bank details and do a money transfer electronically so you have proof with a date when you paid and left your bank should it be needed to have the judgment removed.
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