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Haven't a clue where they're talking about
WeeDom
post Tue, 9 Aug 2005 - 14:27
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1. Was the offence in England or Scotland - ENGLAND
2. The name of the Constabulary - Northumbria
3. Date of the offence - 15/7/2005
4. Date of the NIP - 4/8/2005
5. Date you received the NIP - 9/8/2005
6. Was the NIP addressed to you? - not initially... wife is registered keeper, so she got one first.
7. Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - erm...not sure.  The postmark says they paid 29p for postage...
8. Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? If not then what is your relationship with the vehicle? - it's technically my wifes car
9. Do you hold a UK or foreign driving licence. - UK
10. How many current points do you have? - 6: three for a red light mistake, and 3 for getting caught by mobile scamera in Suffolk
11. Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out.  Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons.

I haven't the faintest idea where they're talking about.  The NIP says A1(M) Washington Services, and I would have been in that area at the time.  I was driving back to Essex from Edinburgh, so I did about 400 miles that day.  There's no way I can remember that part of the journey.  I've looked it up on the map, and it rings no bells.  Obviously I was there, but I don't recall the section of road.

I've drafted the following letter to the Chief Constable, to send backalong with my NIP:

Dear sir/madam,

You have alleged that I was caught on camera exceeding the speed limit at A1(M) Washington Services.

One of my rights, under law, is to a fair trial.  As I am completely unfamiliar with Northumbria, and with the Washington area specifically, I am unable to defend myself against this allegation.  On the day in question I was returning from Scotland to Essex, and so I drove about four hundred miles that day, possibly more.  To expect me to remember what I was doing in the 20 yards covered by your camera, and defend myself against your allegation, is unreasonable in the extreme.

I have no idea if the offence I commited was in an area of dual carriageway, single lane, congestion, roadworks.  I cannot possibly have a fair trial under these circumstances.

Please furnish me with any evidence that you have, including the photographs and some description of the area.  Without these, I cannot defend myself against your allegation, and I cannot have a fair trial without the ability to defend myself.

I would also add that, if you decide to prosecute me for this offence, you are putting at risk my voluntary work with the Scout Association.  I regularly drive Scouts to/from camps and other activities.  Putting points on my license will put me on to 9 points, from where a ban is possible for any trivial error.  With that situation in mind, I would have to restrict my driving to times where it was absolutely necessary, decreasing the risk to my license as much as possible.  This would exclude driving Scouts to camps, etc.


Any thoughts?
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post Tue, 9 Aug 2005 - 14:27
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Jimzzr
post Tue, 9 Aug 2005 - 15:19
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Don't send that letter. Don't fill in their NIP/S172 yet. You have 28 days (use it all) to reply. Get reading this site.

They don't normally send out evidence unless a not guilty plea has been submitted. This occurs, ideally for them, after you have filled out your signed confession (S172/NIP) and a summons issued. If you don't fill out the NIP then they will prosecute you for that instead (or possibly as well if their was sufficient evidence for the speeding offence). They cannot convict you, for speeding, on the basis of your wifes NIP.

You have a legal obligation to answer their questions (as best as you possibly can) given on the form (but you don't have to use the form). As such a letter to request to see the photographic evidence "to assist in identification of the driver" may yield results.

Are you sure you were driving if not you might be able to run a para 4 defence.

Also since you are not the registered keeper of the vehicle Mohindra might come into play. I think it would then be down to the police to prove that you did know was driving rather than you having to convince the Mags that you didn't. Others more knowledgable than me I'm sure will advise.

HTH

Jim
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Lance
post Tue, 9 Aug 2005 - 16:01
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Agreed, hold the letter.

This is a two stage process.

1. They try to find out who was driving the vehicle.

2. They prove the vehicle was involved in a moving traffic offence, speeding in this case.

They are not asking you at this stage anything about the offence. They are simply asking whether you were driving the car at the time of the allegation against you. If you drove alone, you know you were.

If I have understood the situation correctly, then you have two possible responses: return the driver identity information, or do not.

If you do, you will probably be prosecuted for speeding. You can mitigate the risk of this by completing the PACE statement.

If you do not return the information, you will probably be prosecuted for S172 failure - a more serious offence than speeding (usually!). This carries only 3 points, but is looked on unfavourably by insurance companies. However, to convict, the CPS would have to show that the info was in your power to give, and how would they do that?


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WeeDom
post Tue, 9 Aug 2005 - 18:28
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OK... I'll sit on the form for a few weeks.

By a PACE statement, you mean by pointing out that I wasn't cautioned correctly, when it comes time to be prosecuted?

I was on my own that day, so I can't really go the route of being unsure who was driving.

What is Mohindra? (he says hurrying off to google)

Also, it states on the NIP that "The information must be supplied on the reverse of this notice", implying that I do have to use the S172 they've provided.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 9 Aug 2005 - 18:54
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QUOTE (WeeDom)
What is Mohindra? (he says hurrying off to google)

Also, it states on the NIP that "The information must be supplied on the reverse of this notice", implying that I do have to use the S172 they've provided.


Mohindra can be found in the "Useful Links to Legislation and Helpful Advice" thread in the "READ THIS FIRST - FAQ" forum.

You'll also find Jones v DPP there. It confirms that if the information is provided in the form of a signed letter, it complies with the substance of the request, and is therefore perfectly acceptable.


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Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
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firefly
post Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 09:39
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QUOTE (WeeDom)
Update:
I split up with wife, moved to Scotland (this is <U>not</U> recommended as a course of action to take to avoid points/fines!)

Wife received a letter from the police.  I asked her to send back un-opened as "no longer resident".  I *think* she told them my new address, because shortly after (12/10/2005), I have received a Conditional Offer.

Should I just ignore it?  Respond with no cheque but a pleading letter?  Ask to see the evidence?

As I said in my initial post, I don't feel that I can defend myself properly, since I am not in the slightest bit familiar with the area in which the alleged offence took place.


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JT
post Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 10:00
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QUOTE (WeeDom)
Update:
I split up with wife, moved to Scotland (this is <U>not</U> recommended as a course of action to take to avoid points/fines!)

Wife received a letter from the police.  I asked her to send back un-opened as "no longer resident".  I *think* she told them my new address, because shortly after (12/10/2005), I have received a Conditional Offer.

Should I just ignore it?  Respond with no cheque but a pleading letter?  Ask to see the evidence?

As I said in my initial post, I don't feel that I can defend myself properly, since I am not in the slightest bit familiar with the area in which the alleged offence took place.

Hang on a minute...

You have received a CoFP but you never completed a s172 notice? Is it possible that your wife might have filled the form in and signed it on your behalf? If this is the case it could be helpful, as someone else naming you is not good enough evidence for them to make a speeding charge stick, there needs to be something more concrete.

Can you summarise exactly what correspondence you have exchanged with the Ticket Office / Police?


--------------------
There's too much complacency. Somebody ought to do something about it!
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WeeDom
post Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 10:30
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Yes, I received a NIP/S172.  I replied to it, at the edge of the time limit, with a PACE letter.

Then my wife and I split up.

She received the CoFP addressed to me at her current address, and sent it back (opened, silly bugger) to the Police saying "No longer resident".  She *says* she didn't give them my new address, but somehow they found me and I've now received the CoFP, dated 12th October.

The CoFP alleges that I doing 61mph in a 50mph zone at Washington Services, Southbound.
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WeeDom
post Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 10:33
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Only after I'd sent off the PACE letter did I realise that I forgot to actually sign it!  Stupid of me, but they don't appear to have noticed that yet.
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Lance
post Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 15:13
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WD,
Hold tight, because this is an interesting situation. The COFP means nothing. It is a mailshot asking you for £60, that's all.
But an unsigned PACE statement is a new one. In theory this might be enough for a charge of S172 failure, but before they do that they should really give you another chance to sign the form, and it looks like they haven't yet noticed.

I suspect that they may well drop the case altogether. They may consider charging you for speeding, but then notice that the form is not signed. I am uncertain whether an unsigned PACE statement could be adduced as a voluntary confession, but I suspect not. It is not a witness statement either as it is unsigned. So it might be of particularly little use. But if they asked you to sign it at that point, it may be too late to lay info for anything.


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WeeDom
post Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 20:05
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Lance,

OK.  I'll sit back and wait to see what happens.  I'll keep you informed!

Glad to have had something interesting to present you with, with the unsigned PACE statement.  As I said, I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
WeeDom
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JT
post Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 20:35
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As a matter of interest, how do you know the PACE statement was definitely unsigned?


--------------------
There's too much complacency. Somebody ought to do something about it!
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WeeDom
post Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:18
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QUOTE (JT @ Thu, 27 Oct 2005 - 20:35) *
As a matter of interest, how do you know the PACE statement was definitely unsigned?


I'm bad for sending things off, and forgetting to sign them. I just happened to realise, after I'd posted it.

Sorry for the delay in responding, here. Messy break-ups kinda distract a person from speeding tickets sad.gif

Since I received the COFP, I haven't heard anything else at all. I'm still wondering if I'll get a knock on the door from the local Constabulary....

But I have heard, or read, no more on the subject at all. Thought you all might like to know.

<-- turns on email notification smile.gif
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mb1rgw
post Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 00:56
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If you do nothing, one of three things is likely to happen.

1. They will realise you've not sent a signed letter/form, and will send you a reminder. If they do that you should send another PACE letter (within whatever time limit they give), this time remembering to sign it.

2. Without further warning, they will prosecute you for failure to supply driver information. Unless they make an admin screw-up (far from impossible), you will almost certainly be convicted of this. The key judgements (Francis, Jones) have been pretty clear about the need for a signature if required by the Chief of Police.

3. They won't realise you haven't signed and will prosecute you for speeding. They have no evidence of driver identity and this ought to fail.

Or possibly 2 and 3 together.

robin
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The Rookie
post Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 06:13
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Well they had until the 15th Jan to lay papers for speeding, so if they have you will know within he next two weeks, if not they have about 7 more weeks to lay papers for S172, but as they didn't clarify that they wanted it signed, I think you have a good defence, and you can always offer to sign it if the speeding is timed out anyway!

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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WeeDom
post Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 19:57
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 07:13) *
Well they had until the 15th Jan to lay papers for speeding, so if they have you will know within he next two weeks, if not they have about 7 more weeks to lay papers for S172, but as they didn't clarify that they wanted it signed, I think you have a good defence, and you can always offer to sign it if the speeding is timed out anyway!

Simon


Looks good... here I am, 29th March, and nothing has been heard. I think I can breathe a sigh of relief.... except... i got caught again
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