Hammersmith & Fulham PCN, Confusing parking plate and fined within 10 minutes of expiry Options

[CamCait]

Hi all, this is my first post on PepiPoo so please bear with me!

I parked in Hammersmith & Fulham last Wednesday evening at 6pm for the first time ever (I live in the Midlands) in a bay which displayed permit holders F between 9am - 8pm, but then said "or" Mon-Fri 9am - 6:30pm Pay at machine or by phone (attached). I paid via the RingGo app but it would only allow me to pay up to 6:30pm so I assumed it was free after that.

I then received a PCN @ 18:38 which makes me think that they are monitoring payments up to 18:30 and pouncing on unaware victims (or just stupid people like me who don't understand their confusion parking plates!!). So my first question was if anyone was aware of these parking plates/restrictions and is it worth appealing?

But then I noticed on other posts that I may be entitled to a 10 minute grace period, which would mean that I was ticketed 8 minutes after my payment had expired. Therefore can I appeal on this technicality?

Your advise would be very much appreciated.

PCN and RingGo receipt now attached. Receipt says up to 18:29, which I assume is 18:29 and 59 secs, but PCN at 18:38 is still within 10 minutes. Also council pic @ 18:38:44

I look forward to your comments

This post has been edited by CamCait: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 - 08:38

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

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[stamfordman]

Yes it certainly looks like this fits in the 10 min grace but was the session definitely paid up to 18:30?

Post the PCN and council pics. also Ringgo receipt.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

[DancingDad]

If you have a receipt that says paid up to 18.30 then you were lawfully parked in a designated parking place right up till that point in time.
The 10 minute grace period kicks in then, while you were in contravention, they cannot serve a PCN until the full ten minutes has expired, ie 18.41 at the earliest.


Post up what you have, PCN, receipt and any CEo photos (check council parking pages) so we can double check.

[CamCait]

Pictures uploaded. Thanks

[stamfordman]

Draft a challenge and post here first.

[CamCait]

Until I realised that they had issued this ticket within the 10 minute grace period I was thinking of challenging based on the fact that the parking plate is confusing and I just didn't understand it. So basically trying to appeal to their better nature. But in light of this I think I should just go with something like this:

I am appealing against this PCN as I paid for parking up to 18:29:59 on 27/02/19 via the RingGo app, and the PCN was issues within my 10 minute grace period at 18:38. Therefore I request this PCN is cancelled.

What do you think?

Thanks again!

[stamfordman]

yes

"was issued"

Add - I enclose the receipt from Ringgo for your attention.

Wait for others to maybe improve but short and sweet is usually best for a challenge.

[PASTMYBEST]

Until I realised that they had issued this ticket within the 10 minute grace period I was thinking of challenging based on the fact that the parking plate is confusing and I just didn't understand it. So basically trying to appeal to their better nature. But in light of this I think I should just go with something like this:

I am appealing against this PCN as I paid for parking up to 18:29:59 on 27/02/19 via the RingGo app, and the PCN was issues within my 10 minute grace period at 18:38. Therefore I request this PCN is cancelled.

What do you think?

Thanks again!

issues within my 10 minute grace period at 18:38.

remove this bit


Replace with

issued within the 10 minute grace period which the law proscribes.

[DancingDad]

Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ???
This PCN seems to have been served in error.
I was lawfully parked within a designated parking place until 18.29 having paid for a parking session via Ringo.
Copy of Ringo Receipt attached to confirm.
I accept that I was late returning and that after that time I was unlawfully parked. For for that I apologise.
However, the General Regulations provide a ten minute grace period for situations such as these.
As such, the PCN was served before it lawfully could be and must therefore be regarded as void.
I look forward to your confirmation of the PCN cancellation.
Should you disagree, please explain exactly why the ten minute period does not apply.
Many Thanks
Hugs and Kisses

[CamCait]

Many thanks DancingDad & stamfordman. I will update the post when I receive a response!

[CamCait]

Hi Guys,
I received below response from Hammersmith & Fulham rejecting my appeal based on the fact that you are not allowed to park in the residents bay between 18:30-20:00 and therefore my 10-minute grace period is not allowed - which doesn't seem right!
I would appreciate your view on if I should take this to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators?

Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

At certain times, parking in this area is restricted to permit holders only. This PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked without a valid permit during these times.
The vehicle was in controlled parking zone F. Restrictions in that zone apply from 09:00 to 20:00, Monday to Saturday.

The hours of ‘permit holder only’ parking are 6.30pm to 8pm in the evenings Monday to Saturday and from 2pm to 4pm Saturday afternoon. These times are shown on the signs next to the parking bays in the area. These restrictions are intended to give priority to permit holders at times when there is a high demand for parking, i.e. in the evenings and during special events.

Pay & Display tickets/RingGo parking sessions are not valid during ‘permit holder only times’.
Only visitors to residents of this area who have obtained an activated Smart Visitor Permit may park during ‘permit holder only’ times. If the resident being visited does not have access to a visitor permit, then the vehicle should not be parked in the area between 6.30pm to 8pm in the evenings Monday to Saturday & from 2pm to 4pm on Saturday afternoons.

The PCN was issued on the date and at the time above, during a period of permit holder only parking.

I note the comments you have made regarding a grace period of 10 minutes. This is correct, however your parking became invalid after 6:30pm. Please note that drivers have a responsibility to check for parking signs and markings and to park in accordance with them. I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued.
I have considered what you have said and all the available evidence, but I do not agree that we should cancel your liability for this PCN.

If you wish to pay at the discounted rate of £40.00, you may still do so, provided we receive your £40.00 payment within 14 days of the date of this letter. THIS OFFER WILL NOT BE REPEATED. Once these 14 days have expired, the full charge of £80.00 will become due.

[PASTMYBEST]

They accept the grace period is correct but don't seem to understand that it applies

[cp8759]

This is one of the stupidest rejections I have ever seen. I would wait for the Notice to Owner.

[CamCait]

Hi, many thanks for your responses.
Does anyone know where I can find a full description of the 10-minute grace period? as Hammersmith & Fulham seem to think that it doesn't apply in this case because my paid parking session switched into permit holders only at 18:30 and issued a PCN @ 18:38
Kind regards,

[Incandescent]

The problem is that the original Statutory Instrument is a bit ambiguous. Where you have a location where parking is permitted for a time period, free or payable, and you over-run your time, 10 minutes grace is allowed before a PCN can be issued. But I have always assumed that this applies when parking is still allowed within that 10 minute grace period. In this case the spaces revert to permit holders only after the P&D hours finish, so according to my understanding of the SI, the PCN is lawful. I believe my understanding has been upheld at tribunal, but shoot me down if not.

[hcandersen]

From the Explanatory Note to the regs:

These Regulations amend the Civil Enforcement of Parking (England) General Regulations 2007 to introduce a ten minute grace period before a penalty charge is payable and a penalty charge notice can be served in relation to a parking contravention where a vehicle is stationary in an off street or on street permitted parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.


To paraphrase Eric Pickles's words(seems an eternity since he was SoS), a motorist should not be penalised if they return to their car late.

The authority are wrong.

Of course you were in contravention and in your reps you must make and accept this point: I was in contravention of the prevailing restriction. However, the regs draw no distinction between being in contravention where the same restriction applies and where a different restriction has come into effect. Providing the location remains a permitted parking place, which it obviously does as a permit restriction applies, then the 10-minute rule applies.

As the authority's previous response acknowledged that the PCN was served within the 10-minute 'grace period', then the PCN must be cancelled.

And add that you have spelt this out in detail in order to avoid the need for this matter to go to adjudication where you would consider making an application for costs because the matter is so cut-and-dried.

[cp8759]

Hi, many thanks for your responses.
Does anyone know where I can find a full description of the 10-minute grace period? as Hammersmith & Fulham seem to think that it doesn't apply in this case because my paid parking session switched into permit holders only at 18:30 and issued a PCN @ 18:38

Follow the link in cell B2 here and read regulation 4 http://bit.ly/2FVwsAp

[CamCait]

Many Thanks everyone for your advise!
I'm going to wait for the Notice to Owner and appeal, so I will let you know what happens
Cheers

[CamCait]

Hammersmith & Fulham have eventually cancelled the PCN due to not giving me a 10-minute grace period after my ticket expired!!
Thank-you everyone for your help