PCN NTK - Vehicle Control Services Ltd, NTK arrived after 14days, do I have to pay £100? Options

[Dhutch]

I have recently received a PCN NTK from Vehicle Control Services Ltd for parking in the visitors section of a private residential carpark.

Presumably due to Christmas it arrived after the 14 days (20/12/17) and after I left for my parents for holidays (21/12/17), I have just opened it this evening after my first day back, one day before the 28days are up! Arggg.

I is free to park in the carpark, however you need to get a permit daily. I don't know who was driving on the day in question as it was during a four day weekend I was visiting my girlfriend at the development in question. We are very careful to get a permit and ensure its visible (the tend to blow off the dash when you open the door) however it could have fallen down or even been forgotten one day.

Dont like just rolling over to these people, but am also quite busy, so after some advise on the bast way to proceed.

Have had a quick read up on PofA 2012, and past thread on Vehicle Control Services Ltd/Excel Parking Services and the IPC AOS appeal process being rather dubious but am unclear as what is actually best to do.

- Ignore, appears unwise after 2012.
- Ask for evidence, not much time given 28days is up?
- State they have not complied with PofA?
- Try an pay £60 late?
- Pay £100 before the end of 3/01/18?



Thanks in advance.

D



This post has been edited by Dhutch: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:47

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[ostell]

So was there 14 days between the date of the event and the date that the NTK was actually received? If you left for your holiday after the 14 days was up and you had not received the notice then you, as the keeper, can have no liability for the charge.

Your post is not too clear on the details, in fact I found it confusing.

You could find that if you were visiting someone in a residential complex there may have actually been no need to display a permit, all depends on the lease.

But for the time being go for the failed to deliver within 14 days.

YOu could put it down to the Christmas post that you didn't receive it on time, and possibly the fact that the didn't use Royal mail First CLass which allows the presumption of 2 days for delivery. Have you kept the envelope?

Was the person that was bing visited the owner or renter of a flat and what did the lease or Rental Agreement say about parking. Here's some reading for you

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 23:06

[nosferatu1001]

Xmas post delays are not relevant. They are required to ensure it is received within 14 days.

[Dhutch]

So was there 14 days between the date of the event and the date that the NTK was actually received? If you left for your holiday after the 14 days was up and you had not received the notice then you, as the keeper, can have no liability for the charge.

Your post is not too clear on the details, in fact I found it confusing.

...for the time being go for the failed to deliver within 14 days....

Sorry if its not clear. Day 14, from their letter, was Wednesday 20/12/17. I left home for the last time on the morning of the 21/12/17 having not received the letter. It was then at my house when I returned after Christmas and I opened it last night.

Would I put that in writing to them, or phone them on the enquires number? (I presume the payment number is automated)

If posting I believe its best to get a record of sending from the post office, but not to send it signed for as they can not sign for them.

You could find that if you were visiting someone in a residential complex there may have actually been no need to display a permit, all depends on the lease.

You could put it down to the Christmas post that you didn't receive it on time, and possibly the fact that the didn't use Royal mail First Class which allows the presumption of 2 days for delivery. Have you kept the envelope?

Was the person that was bing visited the owner or renter of a flat and what did the lease or Rental Agreement say about parking. Here's some reading for you

Didnt even think to keep the envelope. Might be able to retrieve it from the recycling bin tonight if its important.

The person I was visiting owns a flat in the development, which is a leasehold. I have asked if they are able to provide me with a copy of the agreement having read the article you shared. Obviously if they where driving (do not know who was driving at the time) that may come into it, I will try and find out what their leasehold agreement states. They have one numbered space with the flat, then the visitors bays which is where the daily free-issued permits come in. Some older tenants have additional long term permits, which are still considered valid but no longer issued.

Thanks for the advise so far.

D

This post has been edited by Dhutch: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 09:18

[ostell]

Do not, ever, phone them. Too easy to slip up and give them details that are better left unsaid.

It is 14 days after the event that they have to get the NTK to you so that would be by the 9th December, so if you did not receive it by then they are out of time. A quick BOGOFF letter should suffice.

But also try and get details from the friends lease about parking and any requirement to display a permit or pay for not displaying.

[Dhutch]

It is 14 days after the event that they have to get the NTK to you so that would be by the 9th December, so if you did not receive it by then they are out of time. A quick BOGOFF letter should suffice.

Well certainly it was not there anywhere near the 9th!

I am reasonably confident I can speak to them over the phone in a controlled way without saying anything more than that is has arrived after the 14 days and hence I am not going to pay.

However very happy to draft a letter, and should be able to get it down to the post office over lunch if I am quick.

How about the below draft:



######


To whom it may concern.

PCN Ref no:########

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car. The notice to keeper not served within the mandatory 14 days, arriving after 20/12/17.

'A notice to keeper must be served not later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked'

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn, please cancel the charge.

You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.



Regards

D


######

There is CCTV of the car park, which I understand is controlled by the property management company rather then VCS. This may show who the driver is, however I have not seen it and it may not be available to me or VCS anymore if it ever was.

I have seen cars with notices on the windscreen, but do not recall having one I my car.



Thanks again.

[ostell]

I am the keeper of vehicle xxxxx to which you issued a NTK xxxxx. I was not the driver at the time of the event and you have not complied with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 to hold me liable, namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within 14 days, section 9 (4). I am not under any legal obligation to name the driver at the time and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that there will be no further action taken by you against me.

Delete that last sentence in your last post, it hints at the driver. There is no requirement for them to respond within 21 days, indeed there is no requirement for them to respond at all. You may have confused this with the requirements of the DPA. THey do not need your consent to use your data in this instance.

Now you see why you don't phone, If you'd used a similar script for the phone call it would have shown that you didn't really understand and give them good reason to continue.

Edit: The use of images from the CCTV system used by the management company most probably would be a breach of the DPA.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 11:58

[Dhutch]

I am the keeper of vehicle xxxxx to which you issued a NTK xxxxx. I was not the driver at the time of the event and you have not complied with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 to hold me liable, namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within 14 days, section 9 (4). I am not under any legal obligation to name the driver at the time and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that there will be no further action taken by you against me.

Delete that last sentence in your last post, it hints at the driver. There is no requirement for them to respond within 21 days, indeed there is no requirement for them to respond at all. You may have confused this with the requirements of the DPA. They do not need your consent to use your data in this instance.

Now you see why you don't phone, If you'd used a similar script for the phone call it would have shown that you didn't really understand and give them good reason to continue.

Edit: The use of images from the CCTV system used by the management company most probably would be a breach of the DPA.

Thanks,

Obviously at this point I do not for certain know who the driver was.

Understand that if phoning you would have to know exactly what to say, and not say any more, which would not be easy.

Not 100% who runs which of the cameras, but certainly understand that the majority including those inside the building, where installed and monitored by the management company. The permits are issued by the security staff at the gates, but checked by a third party, presumably VCS Ltd. As far as I am aware their is not an ANPR system in place.



######

03/01/17


To whom it may concern.

PCN Ref no: xxxxxxxx

I am the keeper of vehicle xxxxx to which you issued the above PCN notice to keeper.

I was not the driver at the time of the event and you have not complied with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 to hold me liable, namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within 14 days, section 9 (4).
I am not under any legal obligation to name the driver at the time and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that there will be no further action taken by you against me.


Regards

D



######


Do I need to detail when it arrived? Presumably not?


Obviously in the grand scheme I would much rather not go the court to argue the toss over £60-100 because like is short and i am busy. However I also object to being told if I had paid before the letter arrived I could have save money.

Speaking with my partner the company policing the site has changed since when she moved in, and the number of people who have been caught has gone up steeply and she often sees people complaining about it to the powerless security staff, who would much rather do it all in house.


Daniel

This post has been edited by Dhutch: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:06

[Dhutch]

Also should I be posting to :

Vehicle Control Services Limited
PO Box 4777
Sheffield
S9 9DJ

As per the large but otherwise unmentioned address on back of the ntk document?


or

2 Europa Court
Sheffield Business Park
Sheffield
S9 1XE

As per the 'registered office' in small at the foot of the letter?


Daniel

[ostell]

Send it to the address that they ask you to send it to.

If the residents are having problems with the parking company get them to check what the lease for the properties say to see if the parking company can actually put tickets on the owners cars. Get the management company involved and find out who signed the contract with the parking company. The contents of the lease take priority over any contract a third party stranger to the lease thinks they may have. If the spaces are part of the demised property then the parking company have no right to be operating on land that they do not own or have a contract to operate on. It has been know for owners to take on the parking companies and win. I can't remember the case offhand but it cost one parking company over £2000 when they tried it on with a solicitor who owned his flat and parking space.

[Dhutch]

Send it to the address that they ask you to send it to.

If the residents are having problems with the parking company get them to check what the lease for the properties say to see if the parking company can actually put tickets on the owners cars. Get the management company involved and find out who signed the contract with the parking company. The contents of the lease take priority over any contract a third party stranger to the lease thinks they may have. If the spaces are part of the demised property then the parking company have no right to be operating on land that they do not own or have a contract to operate on. It has been know for owners to take on the parking companies and win. I can't remember the case offhand but it cost one parking company over £2000 when they tried it on with a solicitor who owned his flat and parking space.

Read it again, and yes appeals are done online, but to complain you used the PO Box address. I have attached a copy of the rear of the pcn to opening post.

We will check the leasehold agreement for the flat my partner owns, but this will not be till tomorrow night at the earliest.
I know they have one numbered space with the flat which can be used for any car, and some people have a long term permit for the visitors spaces, but they do not despite asking.
My car was parked in the un-numbered visitor bays.

I will also contact the management company if only to vent, but obviously the time critical thing is to make a decision on the course of action (and act on it?) before the 28 days and the option to just pay £100, which is today. I am not after winning £2000, just not feeding the trolls.


In all honesty, in your opinion, what is the likely risk of sending the above letter over and above just paying £100? If its say 1:1000 of going to small claims, or I will have the option to pay later and void court if they do somehow pull something out the bag then fair enough. If its more like 1:100 change of certain court appearance, it might be better for me just to pay, but as thought that would pain me greatly as I do not feel I have acted wrongly, and at very least should be paying £60 not the full amount.

Is that any millage in mailing a cheque for £60 to them? With a coving letter saying the post was delayed but for a simple life I will pay the 'discounted' amount.


Thanks

[Dhutch]

Also.

If they issue a small claims court summons, or whatever it would be, is their likely to be a 'pay £100 to make it go away' option?
Would it appear on any record of mine, which might effect employability or a mortgage application?

What is the likely, or worst, outcome if it went to small claims and I lost? What would it cost me, in time and money? I don't have days to spent on this but could do an evening or two and a day off work.

Just ensuring I can manage the risk of it doesn't pay off.

Thanks

[Jlc]

If they issue a small claims court summons, or whatever it would be, is their likely to be a 'pay £100 to make it go away' option?
Would it appear on any record of mine, which might effect employability or a mortgage application?

What is the likely, or worst, outcome if it went to small claims and I lost? What would it cost me, in time and money? I don't have days to spent on this but could do an evening or two and a day off work.

Yes, you can simply pay the amount they claim. However, this will usually be 'escalated' so usually around £200 or so.

Only if you go to a hearing, lost and did not pay promptly does it become an issue.

The risks are fairly low even if it goes to hearing - around £300 absolute max.

[kommando]

If they issue a small claims court summons, or whatever it would be, is their likely to be a 'pay £100 to make it go away' option?

Depends, they may take an offer of £100 as it costs them more to take someone to court than the amount they claim for but they may take the offer as showing you are soft enough to pay the whole claim amount which is typically £175 plus addons that do not really exist.

Would it appear on any record of mine, which might effect employability or a mortgage application?

Your credit rating would be harmed for 6 years if ALL of these conditions are met

1. They issue a claim

2. You lose the claim

3. You fail to pay the claimants awarded amount within 28 days.

What is the likely, or worst, outcome if it went to small claims and I lost?

If you win then nothing to pay, if you lose then min £175 but could be up to say £260 if you do not know how to fight their fictitious addons.

What would it cost me, in time and money?

Money see above. Time is a few evenings (more than 1 or 2 I would suggest) plus a day off work, but you have to also take into account that these leeches will not stop issuing more tickets unless some residents/visitors take them to court and get judgement their lease has primacy over the signs, paying them will just encourage more tickets.

[Dhutch]

Yes, you can simply pay the amount they claim. However, this will usually be 'escalated' so usually around £200 or so.

Only if you go to a hearing, lost and did not pay promptly does it become an issue.

The risks are fairly low even if it goes to hearing - around £300 absolute max.

Fair.

Depends, they may take an offer of £100 as it costs them more to take someone to court than the amount they claim for but they may take the offer as showing you are soft enough to pay the whole claim amount which is typically £175 plus addons that do not really exist.

Your credit rating would be harmed for 6 years if ALL of these conditions are met
1. They issue a claim
2. You lose the claim
3. You fail to pay the claimants awarded amount within 28 days.

If you win then nothing to pay, if you lose then min £175 but could be up to say £260 if you do not know how to fight their fictitious addons.

Money see above. Time is a few evenings (more than 1 or 2 I would suggest) plus a day off work, but you have to also take into account that these leeches will not stop issuing more tickets unless some residents/visitors take them to court and get judgement their lease has primacy over the signs, paying them will just encourage more tickets.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Thanks

[Dhutch]

Last questions:

- As I do not know who was driving, either myself, my partner, etc, is it still ok to say it wasnt me who was driving? Just thinking about my defence if it went to small claims.

- Is there any millage at all in trying to pay the 'reduced' £60 rather than it go any further, to at least get back to where we should have been if the letter had come sooner.

- Some cars have been ticketed on the windscreen. If mine had been ticketed and I had not seen it, or even had seen it (?) what would be the implication of that?


Daniel

[Dhutch]

Some cars have been ticketed on the windscreen. If mine had been ticketed and I had not seen it, or even had seen it (?) what would be the implication of that?

Just re-read Section 9 (4) of POFA 2012 schedule 4.

The notice must be given by:
(a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

So screen notes appear not to count?

[kommando]

As I do not know who was driving, either myself, my partner, etc, is it still ok to say it wasnt me who was driving? Just thinking about my defence if it went to small claims.

For a claim you stick to the truth, no one on this forum should tell you any different, so the driver is unknown and no further explanation is needed, they will claim keeper liability which in this case, due to the late delivery they have not met the POFA 2012 requirement.

- Is there any millage at all in trying to pay the 'reduced' £60 rather than it go any further, to at least get back to where we should have been if the letter had come sooner.

And they then have your car marked as a payer, what do you think will happen next, more tickets or no more ?.

-

Some cars have been ticketed on the windscreen. If mine had been ticketed and I had not seen it, or even had seen it (?) what would be the implication of that?

Some PPC's deliberately place a ticket on a car for the picture and then remove it, it then allows them to claim a ticket was issued to the driver which was then ignored, the NTK then has to arrive at the keepers address not before the 28th day and must be before (or on?) the 56th day.

So on that last point VCS are stuffed for the keeper liability as the NTK arrived after the 14 days if no ticket was issued but before the 28 days if a ticket had been issued.

[Dhutch]

For a claim you stick to the truth, no one on this forum should tell you any different, so the driver is unknown and no further explanation is needed, they will claim keeper liability which in this case, due to the late delivery they have not met the POFA 2012 requirement.

Fair, makes sense to me.

And they then have your car marked as a payer, what do you think will happen next, more tickets or no more ?.

Valid question. I managed to make a bus lane dispute go away a few years ago by righting a cheque for the reduced amount months afterwards. But that was Bath CC not a private parking co.

Some PPC's deliberately place a ticket on a car for the picture and then remove it, it then allows them to claim a ticket was issued to the driver which was then ignored, the NTK then has to arrive at the keepers address not before the 28th day and must be before (or on?) the 56th day.

So on that last point VCS are stuffed for the keeper liability as the NTK arrived after the 14 days if no ticket was issued but before the 28 days if a ticket had been issued.

Right.
- So no ticket on the windscreen it must be BEFORE 14 days
- Ticket on the windscreen it put be AFTER 28 days?

That seems an odd rule, but fair enough. I dont think the things on the windscreens are formal/legally enforceable items, more they ask you to pay online on the off chance, and send a ncp out afterwards, from whats been overhead between us.


Daniel

[ostell]

Stop overthinking this and send in the appeal from the keeper, as suggested previously. You can sort out the situation at the flat later.

Read paragraph 8 for the requirements after a windscreen ticket.