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RedSpeed caught at 46mph with CoFP - Should I take it?
iFlip92
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:23
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Hello,
So I got caught in Brighton on A270 Lewes Road, J/W Coldean Lane by a RedSpeed camera as I went through on green at excessive speed as I was undertaking a vehicle and the road was narrowing ahead. I don't often travel around the South of the UK so I had no idea these Red light cameras that also double up as speed cameras exist. I have never run a Red light in my life and don't intend to.

I've been offered a Conditional Offer Fixed Penalty of £100 and 3 Points which I am reluctant to take as I have a bitter taste in my mouth that I only exceeded the limit for a Speed Awareness course by 4mph. I haven't had any offences in 5+ years so I have a clean driving record and history of good driving.

I would like to know if I plead guilty with mitigating circumstances in court, can they award me with a speed awareness course there or no points? It's the 3 points that I care about the most that bother me. My mitigation would be that I had a vehicle behind me and the vehicle on the 3rd lane moved on to the 2nd lane at night with no indication, so I took a decision that braking in front of the vehicle behind me was too risky and could've caused an accident so I speed up to undertake the vehicle in front and I had to speed up excessively as the road was narrowing ahead.

Please advise. The provided photos are tiny... the Sussex Police website is a pile of ****.

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This post has been edited by iFlip92: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:26
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post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:23
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Jlc
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:26
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QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:23) *
I would like to know if I plead guilty with mitigating circumstances in court, can they award me with a speed awareness course there or no points?

Nope. They are not mitigating circumstances.

I presume it's a 30 so you'll end with 4-6 points, an income related fine, costs of £85 and a surcharge of at least £34.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:28
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QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:23) *
I would like to know if I plead guilty with mitigating circumstances in court, can they award me with a speed awareness course there or no points?

Nope. Courses are not enshrined in law, once your case is off to court they are off the table. Besides 46 in a 30 would never be offered a course.

What mitigation do you think you have, you haven't mentioned any. What you describe isn't it.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:29


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iFlip92
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:29
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:26) *
QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:23) *
I would like to know if I plead guilty with mitigating circumstances in court, can they award me with a speed awareness course there or no points?

Nope. They are not mitigating circumstances.

I presume it's a 30 so you'll end with 4-6 points, an income related fine, costs of £85 and a surcharge of at least £34.



If preventing another accident isn't a mitigating circumstance, what is?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:34
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Because you weren't preventing an accident, you were not doing something that may have carried a small risk of one, not the same thing.

If you had space to accelerate from 30 to 46 you had ample space to brake in a fairly gently manner and pull in behind (which takes a longer time as your average speed is lower). Simply put you made the wrong call (and I doubt you were doing 30 before flooring it?).

Presumably it happened here?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:36


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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AntonyMMM
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:50
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Take the COFP - it's the best outcome you are going to get.

You don't appear to have any defence to the offence of speeding, and to even get your mitigation considered you would open yourself up to an increase in points and a much bigger fine/costs (with no chance of a course ).

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:50
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:51
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QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:23) *
...I went through on green at excessive speed as I was undertaking a vehicle and the road was narrowing ahead.

That seems aggravating to me. Undertaking in these circumstances could well amount to driving without due care and attention. If you went to court and said that, I suspect they'd throw the book at you and if for some reason you hadn't been offered an FPN, you'd have been better off saying nothing at all.

In the circumstances, your best option is to take the FPN, anything else will cost a lot more.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:34) *
Because you weren't preventing an accident, you were not doing something that may have carried a small risk of one, not the same thing.

I think the magistrates would say that undertaking at speed where the road becomes narrower is a positive act that causes an increased risk of an accident.


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iFlip92
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:57
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:34) *
Because you weren't preventing an accident, you were not doing something that may have carried a small risk of one, not the same thing.

If you had space to accelerate from 30 to 46 you had ample space to brake in a fairly gently manner and pull in behind (which takes a longer time as your average speed is lower). Simply put you made the wrong call (and I doubt you were doing 30 before flooring it?).

Presumably it happened here?


Yes, that is where it happened.
Tbh, I'm annoyed with myself because Waze did tell me about a Red Light camera ahead, but I thought nothing of it as I've gone through Red Light cameras (on GREEN!) at speed before. These new ******* RedSpeed cameras are going to be a nuissance. Thankfully, I hardly travel down South.

Thank you all for the advice. I will take the COfP.

Additional question: I have a motorbike test on the 10th of November, but I have to send my licence in for them to endorse it with the 3 points. Can I send it in after the test or something? I just called them and they suspended the notice for a few days for me to take my bike test, so I can pay on the 11th of November and then send my licence in.

PS: I normally wouldn't care about these points if they disappeared off the licence in 2 years as normal throughout Europe. 4 years is ridiculous and outdated, as with most things in the UK.... /rant

This post has been edited by iFlip92: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 14:07
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666
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 14:11
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QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:57) *
PS: I normally wouldn't care about these points if they disappeared off the licence in 2 years as normal throughout Europe. 4 years is ridiculous and outdated, as with most things in the UK.... /rant


4 years might well be ridiculous, but its 3 in the UK.
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iFlip92
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 14:18
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QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 14:11) *
QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:57) *
PS: I normally wouldn't care about these points if they disappeared off the licence in 2 years as normal throughout Europe. 4 years is ridiculous and outdated, as with most things in the UK.... /rant


4 years might well be ridiculous, but its 3 in the UK.


Here says 4: https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorseme...driving-licence
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The Rookie
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 14:29
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4 is correct, but only count for anything at all for 3, so effectively it's 3 anyway.

Redspeed camera's are all over the country, not just the south, so time to start obeying limits camera or not.

QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:23) *
history of good driving

Appears not?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 14:29
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They are only 'active' (for totting purposes) for 3 years.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 15:28
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 15:29) *
They are only 'active' (for totting purposes) for 3 years.

But most insurers will want to know about them for five years.
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Logician
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 16:38
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It has all been said above, the fixed penalty offer is the best result you are going to get, your proposed mitigation may be what happened but it is aggravating in point of fact, as we often see. Points are active for 3 years, but of interest to insurers for 5 years.


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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 18:50
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QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:57) *
Yes, that is where it happened.
Tbh, I'm annoyed with myself because Waze did tell me about a Red Light camera ahead, but I thought nothing of it as I've gone through Red Light cameras (on GREEN!) at speed before. These new ******* RedSpeed cameras are going to be a nuissance. Thankfully, I hardly travel down South.

Well you're basically annoyed that you got caught. One solution is to not speed. Another is to lobby for higher speed limits, or the abolition thereof.

QUOTE (iFlip92 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:57) *
PS: I normally wouldn't care about these points if they disappeared off the licence in 2 years as normal throughout Europe. 4 years is ridiculous and outdated, as with most things in the UK

Points are there as a deterrent. Insurers will ask about them for 5 years, they will stay on your licence for 4 years and are active for totting purposes for 3 years. They're meant to be annoying and the fact that you're annoyed means they've had the effect that Parliament intended. After all if too many people were "happy" to accumulate points, the entire enforcement scheme would be ineffective and Parliament would just enact tougher penalties.

Of course you can legitimately disagree with the entire system of penalty points (I don't) or speed limits (I do), but those are political rather than legal issues. There isn't much you can do about that at a national level, but at a local lever you can object to proposals by the local council to lower the speed limits.


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DJ Lexy
post Mon, 2 Nov 2020 - 19:26
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A judge is going to take one look at your photos. They will notice how little the black car has moved compared to yours. They will conclude that you were undertaking at speed, either because the lights had just changed, or the other car was just being a bit slow and you wanted ahead.

You will point out that the road narrows ahead. The judge will argue that it doesn't - there's a straight ahead lane and left turn lane - and you undertook in the left turn lane with the intention of going straight on.

You will say the other car moved lanes without indicating, and you had to switch lanes to avoid an accident because of another car behind you. The judge will point out that there's no third car in the photos, so if there was one it would've been a reasonable distance behind you, and wouldn't have caused you any problem unless it was also travelling at speed. The judge will also point out that, although the other driver should have used their indicators while switching lanes, your speed would be more responsible for a potential accident than the lane change.

In other words, these aren't mitigating factors that make the offence less serious - they're aggravating factors that make it more serious and can result in a bigger punishment.

You should take the 3 points and £100 penalty on this one.
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