Another PCOJ |
Another PCOJ |
Sat, 17 Mar 2018 - 10:04
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 622 Joined: 20 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,668 |
https://www.minsterfm.com/news/local/252963...-a-speed-check/
A 55-year-old man from Bolton has appeared at Bradford Crown Court today (Friday 16 March 2018) and pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice and exceeding the speed limit. On Sunday 2 July 2017 at around 11.45am Geoffrey Alan Davies of Plodder Lane, Farnworth, Bolton was captured travelling at 86 miles per hour by a North Yorkshire Police camera van, whilst riding his Yamaha R1 motorbike along the B6479 at Selside near Ribblehead, a road with a 60 miles per hour limit. Davies realised that the safety camera van had captured him travelling over the specified limit, so before he reached the van he pulled his bike over and obscured the registration plate of his motorbike by wrapping a piece of black clothing over it, in an attempt to evade prosecution and prevent the camera from recording his details. TC Andy Forth from North Yorkshire Police Traffic Bureau undertook an extensive investigation and located and interviewed Davies. After initially denying the offence and disposing of the leathers he was wearing that day, Davies pleaded guilty to both the offence of exceeding the speed limit and perverting the course of justice. He appeared at Bradford Crown Court and was handed a nine month prison sentence, suspended for 12 months and ordered to carry out 150 hours unpaid work. He was also given 3 points on his licence and a £200 fine. Speaking about the investigation and court result, TC Andy Forth said; "Davies went to great length to evade justice – covering his number plate and disposing of his leathers, in the belief that North Yorkshire Police would not pursue the case. If he had faced the facts and held his hands up to the speeding offence, the matter would have been dealt with swiftly and he would of received three points on his licence and faced a £100 fine and the matter would have been over. Instead he has had to go through the criminal justice system and appear at Crown Court today, pleading guilty to charges of perverting the course of justice and exceeding the speed limit and received suspended prison sentence. North Yorkshire Police take the matter of perverting the course of justice incredibly seriously and will always investigate incidents like these and bring the matter before the courts. To behave in this manner is simply not acceptable.“ |
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Sat, 17 Mar 2018 - 10:04
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Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:03
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#41
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
There is often a distinction between someone up in court facing a charge that needs to be proven and someone who fills in a legal form with incorrect information.
In the first case, pleading not guilty is simply saying to the prosecution, prove it, with the defence being to cast doubt on the evidence. The latter is halfway towards PCOJ, the court will then decide if it was a deliberate attempt to avoid justice. |
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Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 18:03
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#42
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Member Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 22 Jul 2017 Member No.: 93,140 |
So why is lying to the police in a standard interview after arrest not considered PCOJ and neither is lying in court when you plead not guilty and deny it on the stand too given you know an investigation is clearly taking place from the moment they arrest you? Generally, the public interest test. If a person is being prosecuted for an offence anyway, will anything be gained from conducting a separate investigation and lengthening a trial into PCOJ if the resulting sentence will not be any longer anyway? But PCOJ has a max sentence of life? And most offences dont. OR (for non motoring) are you saying is a PCOJ sentence always less than or equal to the sentence for the corresponding initial offence being investigated and if tried for two charges the sentences are served concurrently so the same as the initial sentence. So PCOJ for a crime with max sentence of life e.g murder can go up to life but PCOJ for crime that would have got 2 years max can only have max of 2 years also? |
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Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 18:56
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#43
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
The "max sentence of life" is only because PCoJ is a common law offence, not a statute law one where a maximum sentence will have been defined in the statute. It would probably be more useful to look on it as having an undefined maximum sentence.
-------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 18:57
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
So why is lying to the police in a standard interview after arrest not considered PCOJ and neither is lying in court when you plead not guilty and deny it on the stand too given you know an investigation is clearly taking place from the moment they arrest you? Generally, the public interest test. If a person is being prosecuted for an offence anyway, will anything be gained from conducting a separate investigation and lengthening a trial into PCOJ if the resulting sentence will not be any longer anyway? But PCOJ has a max sentence of life? And most offences dont. OR (for non motoring) are you saying is a PCOJ sentence always less than or equal to the sentence for the corresponding initial offence being investigated and if tried for two charges the sentences are served concurrently so the same as the initial sentence. So PCOJ for a crime with max sentence of life e.g murder can go up to life but PCOJ for crime that would have got 2 years max can only have max of 2 years also? That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that in many cases it is not considered to be worth the time and effort to investigate and prosecute what may legally be a PCOJ, for numerous reasons. Where a person is charged with an offence other offences are often not pursued - the prosecutor will select the offence(s) that reflect the culpability and give the court an appropriate sentencing option. Tacking on additional charges will often not result in a longer sentence due to the principle of totality and concurrent sentences. PCOJ carries a theoretical life sentence because it is an offence contrary to common law. Nobody is ever going to get a life sentence for PCOJ. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 19:30
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#45
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,535 Joined: 16 Jan 2009 From: Up north Member No.: 25,505 |
. Nobody is ever going to get a life sentence for PCOJ.
[/quote] Maybe its about time we got rid of the sentencing council guidlines and allowed judges to actually judge. This current crap about concurrent for sentences is a farce. -------------------- Bridges burnt, Rubicons crossed. Parthian shots delivered, but always with style
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Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 20:03
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#46
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Maybe its about time we got rid of the sentencing council guidlines and allowed judges to actually judge. This current crap about concurrent for sentences is a farce. Well, you’d have to get rid of the legislation concerning sentencing, and enact new legislation to overturn the common law sentencing decisions. I still can’t see a judge imposing a life sentence for PCOJ though, even given free reign. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 04:26
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#47
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,200 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Maybe its about time we got rid of the sentencing council guidelines and allowed judges to actually judge. Much of the sentencing guidelines were aimed at preventing Judges giving often very lenient sentences were other judges would have given tougher ones. Its not 'natural justice' for two offenders to get very different sentences for the exact same offences just because of the different judges whims. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:12
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Its not 'natural justice' for two offenders to get very different sentences for the exact same offences just because of the different judges whims. If they’re identical offenders. Personal mitigation and criminal record will be factors. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 14:07
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#49
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Maybe its about time we got rid of the sentencing council guidlines and allowed judges to actually judge. This current crap about concurrent for sentences is a farce. Well, you’d have to get rid of the legislation concerning sentencing, and enact new legislation to overturn the common law sentencing decisions. I still can’t see a judge imposing a life sentence for PCOJ though, even given free reign. I don't think it's impossible to conceive of circumstances where a life sentence might be warranted, though of course we're in the realms of fairly improbable hypothetical scenarios. But say that an 18yo fabricates evidence that results in multiple people being sent to prison for very long terms, maybe even life (for example he frames, or helps frame multiple individuals for a series of vicious murders). Skip forward 40 years, he's now 58 and it emerges his evidence was deliberately and meticulously fabricated, but unfortunately the people who were wrongly convicted have since died in custody. I think a judge would give very serious consideration to a life sentence. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 17:08
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#50
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
though of course we're in the realms of fairly improbable hypothetical scenarios. I try to deal in practicalities. I found it was one of the great differences between learning law and practising it. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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