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[NIP Wizard] Speeding Ticket for Distance
Cho
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:54
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2018
Date of the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 12 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A496, LLANELLYTB, BARMOUTH, GWYNEDD
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - I'm Registered Keeper
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I went with a friend in Barmouth, on motorcycles a friend from the front I behind him. On the road came a policeman and stopped a friend and me, the policeman was alone with his motorcycle, he explained that there was a speeding where the speed should be 30 miles. showed my friend speed gun with 43 miles. then he called a team-mate on the radio in 5 minutes came a partner. he wrote to a friend '' Traffic Offence Report'' Then he start to write out '' Traffic Offence Report for me, arguing that my distance was the same. He did not fix my speed on speed gun. he wrote me the '' Traffic offence REport'' with the same speed. he start to explain that he had a very large experience of 20 years. After receiving NIP i wrote email about my situation.
my case was reviewed and suspended until 15.07.2018 I must choose their terms or elect a court hearing. I know that I did not exceed the speed, can anyone come across this situation, can help me what should I do?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Да

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 20:54:14 +0000
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post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:54
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Jlc
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:05
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It's a normal form of enforcement for 'groups' of vehicles, usually motorcycles, where a single reliable speed measurement is used on the group, e.g. the lead vehicle.

The witness I presume says that you were both travelling at the same speed after the measurement was made?

You would have to explain how the officer made a 'mistake' if you were not travelling together.

What do you mean by their terms? Fixed penalty/course?

QUOTE (Cho @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:54) *
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second

Was more likely 1st class franked.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:13
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QUOTE (Cho @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:54) *
After receiving NIP i wrote email about my situation. my case was reviewed and suspended until 15.07.2018 I must choose their terms or elect a court hearing.


If you've received a CoFP, (fixed penalty), i would accept it. If you elect to go to court i fear it will be an expensive day out.


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Cho
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:33
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yes we went together, but my distance was great since we missed each other on the circle, that is, I did not go directly behind his back 100- 150 meter.

I have received fixed penalty, my friend agree with his speeding
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Logician
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 23:37
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Your friend accepts he was doing 43 in a 30 limit. You were riding together, so even if you were not doing exactly 43, it is unlikely you were within the limit. Your exact speed does not matter, the fixed penalty would be the same. Going to court and arguing that you were doing a speed about 50% lower than your friend when you were travelling together is very unlikely to be successful, and if you are convicted the fine and costs would be many times as much as the fixed penalty. The sensible thing is to accept the fixed penalty.


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Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:05
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QUOTE (Cho @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 22:33) *
yes we went together, but my distance was great since we missed each other on the circle, that is, I did not go directly behind his back 100- 150 meter.

This isn't particularly clear - what does 'missed each other on the circle' mean?

The officer may be mistaken but it's hard to tell without seeing his statement - which you won't get to see unless it goes to court... (Which could become costly should you want to maintain a not guilty plea)

Of course, if you did not exceed 30mph at any point then you need to consider your options. You can't tell you what to do but accepting the fixed penalty disposes of the matter without a prosecution.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:06


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:14
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I'm assuming English isn't the OPs first language (based on some of the phraseology), I read a circle to be a roundabout.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:26
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:14) *
I'm assuming English isn't the OPs first language (based on some of the phraseology), I read a circle to be a roundabout.

Yes, possibly but if the OP was 100-150m apart from the other motorcyclist it appears to cast some doubt on whether the speed measurement applies? And if so far apart why not a separate measurement?

QUOTE (Cho @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:54) *
After receiving NIP i wrote email about my situation.

What did this email say?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:26
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OP, perhaps you can post a link to where you were caught?

The problem would seem to be both that road is windy, and also that at 30mph vs 43mph you would be dropping behind him by six metres every second. You would not appear to be together, yet clearly the policeman has correctly identified that you were.

Bearing in mind the only speed measurement they have for you is relying on you riding together it's important to know why he formed that judgement.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:44
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:26) *
QUOTE (Cho @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:54) *
After receiving NIP i wrote email about my situation.

What did this email say?

And to whom was it sent?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Cho
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:22
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Cho
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:42
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in (NIP) speeding - exceed 30 mph on restricted road - manned equipment. I stopped because the policeman stopped my friend.

My name is ........... I totally disagree with Notice Number .........

I'll try to explain the situation.

05/05/2018 My friend and I rode motorcycles. My friend rode in front of me, I was driving behind.
We were stopped by a policeman , the policeman explained why he stopped him and subscribed '' Traffic Offence Report'' for overspeeding in zone 30 the speed was 43.The policeman was alone
Then policeman said that I also violated the speed limit, based on the distance between us.
that is, my speed was not fixed, the ''Traffic offence Report'' with speed 43 was with his opinion and professional experience.Proof only the opinion of a policeman it's incredible.
To my question if there were 10 motorcyclists riding with the same distance, would he stop everyone? He answered yes.




Thanks

then i have replay from them

''I have read your concerns regarding the above subject heading and note your disagreement with its issue. I have liaised with the Reporting Officer who is satisfied that the Traffic Offence report was issued correctly. I am sure you understand that I am unable to assume the role of a Magistrates and have therefore arranged for this matter to be suspended until the 15 July 2018 for you to consider your options, which are to either comply with the conditional offer or elect a court hearing.



Yours sincerely''
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Cho
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:52
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Of course, I doubt the police officer's mess because the proof is only his experience to determine by eye. I can believe in logic experience , but how does the evidence, there is too short a section of the road to determine the same distance
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AntonyMMM
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:57
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QUOTE (Cho @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:52) *
Of course, I doubt the police officer's mess because the proof is only his experience to determine by eye. I can believe in logic experience , but how does the evidence, there is too short a section of the road to determine the same distance


Then you elect for the court hearing and plead not guilty - but if you lose the case (which is very likely) the financial penalty will be much higher than the FPN.

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Cho
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:03
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:57) *
QUOTE (Cho @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:52) *
Of course, I doubt the police officer's mess because the proof is only his experience to determine by eye. I can believe in logic experience , but how does the evidence, there is too short a section of the road to determine the same distance


Then you elect for the court hearing and plead not guilty - but if you lose the case (which is very likely) the financial penalty will be much higher than the FPN.



I understand it all, I just want to know what evidence is based on the accusation.
road traffic regulation act 1984, s.89(2) does not work for my situation?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:25
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QUOTE (Cho @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:03) *
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:57) *
QUOTE (Cho @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:52) *
Of course, I doubt the police officer's mess because the proof is only his experience to determine by eye. I can believe in logic experience , but how does the evidence, there is too short a section of the road to determine the same distance


Then you elect for the court hearing and plead not guilty - but if you lose the case (which is very likely) the financial penalty will be much higher than the FPN.



I understand it all, I just want to know what evidence is based on the accusation.
road traffic regulation act 1984, s.89(2) does not work for my situation?

There is more evidence than a single witnesses opinion - there is a reading from an approved device of a vehicle traveling at what appeared to be the same speed as yours.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Cho
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:28
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:25) *
QUOTE (Cho @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:03) *
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:57) *
QUOTE (Cho @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:52) *
Of course, I doubt the police officer's mess because the proof is only his experience to determine by eye. I can believe in logic experience , but how does the evidence, there is too short a section of the road to determine the same distance


Then you elect for the court hearing and plead not guilty - but if you lose the case (which is very likely) the financial penalty will be much higher than the FPN.



I understand it all, I just want to know what evidence is based on the accusation.
road traffic regulation act 1984, s.89(2) does not work for my situation?

There is more evidence than a single witnesses opinion - there is a reading from an approved device of a vehicle traveling at what appeared to be the same speed as yours.


there is a reading from an approved device of a other vehicle, not my vehicle
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southpaw82
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:32
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QUOTE (Cho @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:28) *
there is a reading from an approved device of a other vehicle, not my vehicle

And what relevance does that have to s 89(2)? None. There is evidence other than the opinion of a single witness, so that section is of no use to you. What weight the court might give to the evidence is a different matter.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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NewJudge
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 12:58
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You need to be well aware of what you are risking here.

If you are found guilty you face a fine of a week's net income, a surcharge of 10% of the fine (Minimum £30, Maximum £170), and prosecution costs. These costs will be at least £350 and may be as much as £620. You could be facing a total bill of around £1,000. As well as that, although a short ban is possible, you will have a minimum of four points added to your licence.

The officer will give evidence that he measured your friend's speed using an approved device. He will also give evidence that he saw you travelling at the same or a similar speed. You will have to convince the court that the officer could not be sure of that second fact and that he was so much mistaken that his evidence cannot be relied upon to show that you were travelling above 30mph. If you think that is true (and you can convince a court that it is) then you should plead not guilty. But bear in mind the potential cost to you should you fail.

Out of interest, were you travelling above 30mph at the time?

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:03
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thisisntme
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:10
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Might it have been better for the OP had he not stopped with his friend?


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I reserve the right to be wrong.
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