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Speeding Ticket on A5 flyover Staples Corner London
iliketomoveitmov...
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 00:57
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Hi All...new to the forum so please be gentle. huh.gif

Got stopped by Police using a gun....not sure if its laser or radar these days ???

Anyway i was on the left lane heading north going onto the A5 flyover (2 lanes) over staples corner. Midway across the flyover there was a black car on the right lane coming up behind me. As i approached the end of the flyover i noticed the policeman who stepped out and flagged me down. By the time i started slowing down the black car on the right was well in front of me.

The black car also stopped well in front of me and very close to the policeman. So we are both stopped but he asked the black car to move on and asked me to park up.

He told me i was doing 53 in 30mph.

My Question is: could there be a mistake here ? Could it be that the black car was travelling at 53mph and not me ? How else could it be possible that he started behind me and ended up in front of me.

Does any one here know how these speed guns work ? Do they lock on to the target ? What happens when there are 2 vehicles like in my situation ? Could the officer have told the wrong car to go by mistake ?

Any ideas to defend this case ? The other police office was busy so i don't think he can claim to have a witness. I was in the car with my 14 year old who witnessed the black car overtaking us and then stopping and then told to move on.

I also don't remember seeing any 30 signs on this stretch, so I went on google maps and saw that there is a very small 30 speed limit sign before getting on the flyover. Doesn't this sign need to be a certain sign ? See attached.

Then during the flyover there are some square orange WATCH YOUR SPEED LIMIT 30MPH SIGNS. Do these count as appropriate signs ?

Is this appropriate signage ? Surely i should be keeping my eyes on the road instead of trying to read minuscule speed signs and text.

Thanks All!!!
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Attached File  a5_edgware_road_30_sign.tiff ( 1.15MB ) Number of downloads: 92
 
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post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 00:57
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Earl Purple
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 01:13
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I know the flyover very well and everybody does 40mph or so over it, I think they just can't be bothered changing it to 40 then changing it back again. I've seen police enforcing at the end of the flyover too.

In any case, you should know that the speed limit is 30mph just because there are street lamps that are close enough together and no sign to the contrary, and that they are nice enough to warn you of the speed limit just in case you forget.

The other vehicle next to you may well have been going faster and may receive an NIP themselves but that's not your business, you have to determine if you were speeding and how to defend your own case.



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iliketomoveitmov...
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 01:57
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Well thats my whole argument....could there be a possibility that the speed gun captured the speed of the black car instead of mine ? Could the office have mixed up the cars in the process ? Does this doubt account for a defence ?
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bhara
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 04:38
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What speed do you think you were driving at?
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Spenny
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 08:54
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Have you considered that the black car was going faster than 53mph?

If you arrived first, the officer would have sighted you, and could not switch to the faster car, so that is why Mr BC got away with it, luck of the draw.

I'm sure there are games you could try and question the charge, but I'd suggest that it sounds like you don't even know how fast you were going and unless the charge is more than the standard 3 points fixed penalty, or you are on a lot of points already, I wouldn't go gambling because the magistrates might decide that arguing over a 53 in a 30 deserves a harder slap, there are no mitigating circumstances and you had a young passenger which is an aggregating factor.

I couldn't tell what the before and after limits were, but 53 doesn't fit well with either a 30 or 40 limit before and a misunderstanding over signage.

To fight these things you really should start from a genuine grievance rather than just trying to wriggle out of a fair cop.
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Jlc
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 09:13
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The sign in your picture is a permitted 'speed camera with speed limit' sign - it is not a terminal sign. You will have passed a terminal sign with a proper 30mph limit - or will have started within the limit and the system of street lighting without signs to the contrary will set the limit as 30mph.

53 is likely to be a court summons so you may have quite a wait. When you do hear there should be a statement in which you can decide on how you plead. Although, some forces offer fixed penalties at that speed - if offered I would strongly suggest accepting it. (3 points / £100)

Did they tell you what would happen? (Or give you a traffic offence report?)

Sentencing will be close to the guidelines:



Discount of 33% for a guilty plea, costs around £85, surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £20).

Pleading not guilty is a big step - whilst it's always possible the occifer made a mistake his statement will confirm your car was targetted. Pleading not guilty could see costs of £600+ so one has to think very carefully before going that route - especially if you were exceeding the prescribed limit.

QUOTE (iliketomoveitmoveit @ Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 00:57) *
Does any one here know how these speed guns work ? Do they lock on to the target ? What happens when there are 2 vehicles like in my situation ? Could the officer have told the wrong car to go by mistake ?
Difficult to tell without knowing what of device was used. But the officer will have been trained and he will state he aimed the device at you - possibly through a sight. The laser beam will be extremely narrow at short range and will almost certainly have been your speed.

QUOTE (iliketomoveitmoveit @ Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 00:57) *
Any ideas to defend this case ? The other police office was busy so i don't think he can claim to have a witness. I was in the car with my 14 year old who witnessed the black car overtaking us and then stopping and then told to move on.
They have sufficient evidence. Even if the other car was speeding it does not help your defence.

QUOTE (iliketomoveitmoveit @ Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 00:57) *
I also don't remember seeing any 30 signs on this stretch, so I went on google maps and saw that there is a very small 30 speed limit sign before getting on the flyover. Doesn't this sign need to be a certain sign ? See attached.
Then during the flyover there are some square orange WATCH YOUR SPEED LIMIT 30MPH SIGNS. Do these count as appropriate signs ?
Is this appropriate signage ? Surely i should be keeping my eyes on the road instead of trying to read minuscule speed signs and text.
As above, there won't be any 30mph signs - other than the terminal sign at the entry to the limit. The system of street lighting is your cue and you should be using your eyes to observe them.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 09:15


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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sgtdixie
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 10:00
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As you haven't even suggested you were not speeding and going court will see you having to give evidence what will you say if asked what speed you were doing?
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Logician
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 11:26
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That is a well known place for them to operate, traffic crawls down the Edgware Road then comes to the flyover built to motorway standards as a dual carriageway and speeds up with great relief, only to find an officer with a speed gun over the brow. Almost certainly it is too short a length to be given a higher limit, which anyway would be a bit pointless as you are in traffic again when you get to the other side. It could have been designed to trap drivers!

It does not need 30 signs as you are already in a 30 zone, probably all the way from central London, though I can't be sure about that. I am afraid that 53 in a 30 will be too fast for a fixed penalty in the Met area, so you are likely to be dealt with by a court, where the penalty may be 6 points or a short ban, and a fine equivalent to your net weekly income, less 33% for a G plea, plus 10% surcharge (min £20) and costs of £85. You do not suggest you were not speeding or even dispute the speed, so you are better pleading G. If you choose to dispute the speed, all you can do is ask the officer if he could have measured the speed of the black car instead, he will say he knows he was measuring your speed, and you have nowhere to go from there. The black car may well have been going faster than you, but he had already sighted you, so that does not help you, as already explained.


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Earl Purple
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 17:46
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The A5 is 30mph the whole time. Park Lane which is not part of the A5 has a 40mph limit northbound. Brockley Hill also has a 40mph speed limit. That is north of the A410 and south of the A41. After crossing the A41 the road becomes the A5183 and has mostly higher limits other than through Radlett where I think it is 30mph.
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iliketomoveitmov...
post Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 23:49
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Thanks all for responses. In response to some of the questions....I reckon i was doing about 40mph. Thats why i feel he may have sighted the other car and stopped me or the reading on the gun got mixed up somehow.

Is there any technical way that could happen ?

The office has given me a Fixed Penaltly of 3 points and £100 fine.
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Earl Purple
post Wed, 19 Mar 2014 - 00:07
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Fixed penalty of 3 points and £100 is what you would most likely get for 40mph. For 53mph in a 30mph area you'd be lucky to get away with that. As you have no real defence in court as you admit doing 40, you'll most likely find it's not worth competing.

If you do, the FPN counts for nothing and they would have to use the evidence they have to bring a summons against you. Therefore any "flaw" you may find on the FPN is irrelevant as the summons would be brand new.

Others may comment.
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Logician
post Wed, 19 Mar 2014 - 00:24
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QUOTE (iliketomoveitmoveit @ Tue, 18 Mar 2014 - 23:49) *
Thanks all for responses. In response to some of the questions....I reckon i was doing about 40mph. Thats why i feel he may have sighted the other car and stopped me or the reading on the gun got mixed up somehow. Is there any technical way that could happen ? The office has given me a Fixed Penaltly of 3 points and £100 fine.


The officer may have done you a favour and put in a lower speed than he measured, because a fixed penalty would not normally be given for 50 and over in a 30. You would get the same offer for the 40 that you would accept you were doing, so it follows that there is no point at all in trying to dispute your speed, and your best course of action is simply to accept the fixed penalty.



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Jlc
post Wed, 19 Mar 2014 - 07:20
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The offence is exceeding the limit - you seem to admit doing this so the fixed penalty disposes of the matter without prosecution.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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sssammm
post Tue, 7 Oct 2014 - 22:15
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I did exactly 50 on that stretch, was stopped by the police.

I got £400 fine and 6 points, complete arseholes

This post has been edited by sssammm: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 - 22:15
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The Rookie
post Wed, 8 Oct 2014 - 08:05
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Seeing as how it is a correctly signed 30 limit, and you were committing a criminal offence, I'm not sure why you think the Police were the arseholes.


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NeverMind
post Wed, 8 Oct 2014 - 15:41
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QUOTE (sssammm @ Tue, 7 Oct 2014 - 23:15) *
I did exactly 50 on that stretch, was stopped by the police.

I got £400 fine and 6 points, complete arseholes


I have no idea what your job is, but I'm sure you'd be unhappy if you were told you were a complete ******** just for doing it.

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