Newcastle Airport PCN |
Newcastle Airport PCN |
Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 15:59
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
Just looking for advice for the next step to take regarding a PCN received for dropping off at the Hilton Hotel Barrier at Newcastle airport.
My wife received a PCN regarding the above in April 2016. The letters have been ignored from UKPCC & then from Gladstones. Last month we received a letter before claim from BW Legal. After looking reading the forum I sent the following in reply: Dear Sir I have received your letter dated 29th October 2018 The driver did not contravene any parking restrictions Even if they had, the parking notice to which you refer is nothing more than an offer not to prosecute me under the Newcastle Airport Byelaws As the deadline for any prosecution was more than a year ago, such a contract has long ceased to have any purpose You cannot seriously believe that I had a legal obligation to accept the offer I suggest that you advise your client regarding the futility of any legal action I have now had the following reply from BW Legal Thank you for your email, the contents of which have been noted on file. Our Client is engaged by Newcastle International Airport Ltd to enforce the Newcastle International Airport Byelaws 2009 (Byelaws) and to (a) issue Parking Charge Notices (PCN) to vehicles parked in contravention of the Byelaws and (b) bring proceedings in its own name. It is fundamental to note that the Byelaws do not prevent our client from entering into a contract with a motorist. As such, any material breach of the terms and conditions (stated below) gives rise to a contractual claim which can be brought under civil proceedings (i.e. via the County Court). You are put to strict proof to the contrary. The signage erected at the Site contained, inter alia, the following terms and conditions: “PARKING NOTICE RESTRICTED ZONE NO STOPPING, PARKING, LOADING OR UNLOADING IN THIS AREA STOPPING, PARKING, LOADING OR UNLOADING IN THIS AREA WILL RESULT IN A £100 PARKING CHARGE NOTICE BEING ISSUED. YOUR DETAILS MAY BE REQUESTED FROM THE DVLA.” The signage situated across the Site forms a unilateral offer to anyone wishing to park their vehicle at the location. As the offer is a unilateral one, there is no need for the motorist to communicate their acceptance; the performance of parking in accordance with the terms and conditions is the act of acceptance. The signs are prominent and the terms and conditions are clearly displayed, and the motorist would have had the opportunity to read and understand them on parking at the Site. An objective observer would consider this action to have been done in acceptance of the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions (referred to in the paragraph above), which you accepted upon entering the Site, are clear and unambiguous. The terms make it clear that you should not stop, park, load or unload your Vehicle. The enclosed photographs taken by the Automatic Number Plate Recognition(ANPR) cameras shows your Vehicle breaching the terms and conditions as the Vehicle had stopped/parked in an area where it was prohibited. As a result of the breach, our client is well within their rights to issue the PCN and take all necessary steps (including bringing legal proceedings) to recover the outstanding charge. Accordingly, the Balance is Due in full. Is it best just to ignore? Any help would be greatly appreciated |
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 15:59
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 16:06
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
WEll no, of course you dont ignore
1) NO STOPPING so no, there isnt a contract. You cannot absolutely prohibit something then say but if you do it you owe us £100! 2) Did the notices ACTUALLY contain an offer not to prosecute, or did you just copy this from one of REdivis posts? Given I know that letter quite well. If you arent sure, then you might have looked foolish by using it... 3) Their statement that it offers a contract is misleading. Fora start, it doesnt offer a parking contract for those who stop. Stopping is not parking 4) You cannot be in contravention of byelaws AND have a contract agreed. You cannot contract to do something disallowed in law. Ask BW Legal how a motorist can contract with their client something they byelaws render an offence pursuable in magistrates court? You require an explanation how a legal contract could be formed under these circumstances. The usual BW Legal teaboy response will be used to claim costs when any poorly conceived claim is defeated. |
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 17:02
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
What does it say on the back of the PPN, does it make any reference to "this is not under a contract"
Previously they stated "this is under byelaws only " |
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 18:28
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Many thanks for your very helpful letter.
I note that you confirm that the notice was issued to enforce byelaws. Thank you. As such, you will be well aware that the land is not relevant land as defined by PoFA. Therefore, as I am the registered Keeper, you cannot hold me liable under PoFA. Contact the driver. I note that you confirm that the notice was issued to enforce byelaws. Thank you. As such, you will be well aware that byelaw prosecutions must be laid before a magistrates court within 6 months of the alleged offence. As this dispute dates back x months/years, it is too late for the appropriate STATUTORY authority to lay information. Additionally, as Registered Keeper, I was never liable under byelaws. Please contact the driver, who I am not obliged to name, as you are well aware. Or similar. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 19:10
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
The Newcastle Airport Byelaws say that for parking they can issue a Parking Notice to the registered keeper
They say that court action can be used to recover the amount but it's far from clear whether this comes under civil or criminal law |
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 19:43
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
The byelaws make reference to the keeper can be held liable.
How strong would this stand up ? |
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 20:00
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
The Newcastle Airport Byelaws say that for parking they can issue a Parking Notice to the registered keeper They say that court action can be used to recover the amount but it's far from clear whether this comes under civil or criminal law For the first 6 months, presumably? Thereafter, PoFA would be needed to hold RK liable but that's only available on relevant, non-byelaw land? Whichever way, RK must be off the hook now, or am I barking up the wrong tree? -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 08:29
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
No possible way a keeper can be held liable when the enabling regs dont give the byelaws that reach
Trying to claim someone who has potentially never been on the site is liable for a breach of laws that ONLY have reach on that site would be ultra vires |
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Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 16:19
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
Here`s one already with BWL looks like same barrier location.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...14589&st=20 |
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Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 21:45
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
This place regularly comes up. It's off the road, no double yellows. Right honeypot
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Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 17:08
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#11
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
After replying to BW Legal with Cabbyman's response, i have received the following:
Thank you for your recent email, the contents of which have been noted on file. As you are aware, the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) is not relevant to this case as Our Client is enforcing the byelaws at the location and as such, no reference has been made to holding you liable under POFA in the below correspondence. The byelaws at the location allow the sum of a Parking Charge Notice to be recovered from the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. As stated below, it is fundamental to note that the Byelaws do not prevent Our Client from entering into a contract with a motorist. As such, any material breach of the Terms and Conditions (stated below) gives rise to a contractual claim which can be brought under civil proceedings (i.e. via the County Court). As a result of the Terms and Conditions at the location being breached, Our Client is well within their rights to issue the Parking Charge Notice and take all necessary steps (including bringing legal proceedings) to recover the outstanding charge. Please note that Our Client will not accept a settlement for this Account, therefore the Outstanding balance remains Due and Owing. Any advice on the next step? |
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Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 17:24
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Dear Sirs,
Ref xxxxxx Thank you for your recent E mail the contents of which I note. Please provide a transcript of "The byelaws at the location [that] allow the sum of a Parking Charge Notice to be recovered from the Registered Keeper of the vehicle." Love and kisses. They are tying themselves up in some knots! Await confirmation from others. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 22:20
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
The byelaws do make a reference to recovering from the registered keeper.
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 08:29
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Yes, but only for a byelaws offence
(And that is ultra vires anyway. the enabling legislaiton for the byelaws does NOT extend theier scope to any one in the UK. Just those on the land.) Not a contract Send a response back Also ask them If you are claiming you can use the powers under the byelaws, how are you applying those to a simple contractual claim? It is either a byelaws offence, whihch you can only pursue through magistrates, or it is a contractual claim through the county court. In the latter case it is clear POFA cannot apply, and any powers, ultra vires though tyey are, granted by byelaws cannot apply to your claim. A response NOT written by the office teaboy, but by someone who can see that you ar etrying to mislead a consumer with your incoherent drivel, would be appreciated. |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 10:28
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
Just to add a bit of info previous PCN there stated "Unlike a private parking charge notice issued under the Protection of Freedoms Act this is a fine and under Byelaw 3.3.1 the registered keeper is immediately held liable for the sum due"
So is UKPPO taking the place of a court and issuing a fine? |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 11:21
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Well, certainly they are giving that impression, which is clearly misleading, they know it to be so, and they are likely commiting an offence unde the Fraud Act 2006
OP - include that bit about it being a "fine", and ask how it can simultaneously be a fine (criminal) AND a civil invoice to be dealt with by the county court. Or, was their earlier inforamtion misleading, and they wish to recant that position again? |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 11:23
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,200 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Noting even if it was enshrined in the byelaws properly it would be a penalty and not a fine and that you would still have recourse to a court for arbitration on the matter, as you would with a DVLA penalty for example.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 19:24
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
OP should check what it says on the back of their PCN.
Byelaws say a "Parking Charge Notice" can be issued. UKPPO contract said "Penalty Charge Notice can be issued. Signs around airport 2015 stated "Penalty Notice" would be issued Signs then removed and changed to "Parking Charge Notice" will be issued. |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 20:36
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#19
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
Hello again.
My wife has received a county court letter today the particulars of the claim says: The claimants claim Is for a sum of £256.66 being monies due from the Defendant to the claimant in respect of Parking Charge Notice for a parking contravention which occurred on 18/04/2016 in a controlled parking zone located at Newcastle Airport Woolsington - Roads Surrounding Car Park Entrance & Exit Points , in relation to a Renault Clio registration mark *******. The defendant was allowed 28 days from the PCN issue date to pay the PCN but failed to do so. Despite demand having being made the defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability. The claim also includes Statutory Interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum (a daily rate of 0.02 from 18/04/2016 to 14/02/2019 being an amount of £20.66 The claimant also claims £60.00 contractual costs as set out in the terms and conditions Amount claimed 180.66 Court fee 25.00 Legal rep costs 50.00 Total amount 255.66 How should I reply to this? First thing I noticed was the extra £100 they have put on the amount claimed but havent explained what this is for? Any help would be greatly appreciated. The wife is starting to worry! |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 20:54
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
They say the claiment claims £60 contractual costs set out in the terms and conditions,
Where are these terms and conditions for someone to read, certainly not on the signs around the airport. |
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