Bus Lane PCN - Graffiti on Sign |
Bus Lane PCN - Graffiti on Sign |
Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 16:52
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
Hello all,
I moved into a bus lane to make a left turn and may have wrongly assumed I could enter. My issue is that the sign displayed the times had graffiti over it. I went over there today and took pictures of the sign (I may even have dashcam footage of the sign). I found it difficult to read (I do not wear glasses) and could only clearly see the times properly up close standing in front of the sign. I haven't made a challenge yet. Do I stand a chance? Here is a google maps link of the location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5517353,0.1...6384!8i8192 The last picture is to show the name of the nearest road with the sign. This post has been edited by george74: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 16:53 |
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 16:52
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 17:44
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
worth a shout but there is a long stretch of lane before with the same hours.
here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5517353,0.1...6384!8i8192 Wood Lane is very long so if there are lots of bus lanes there could be a vague location on PCN. |
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 19:27
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
worth a shout but there is a long stretch of lane before with the same hours. here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5517353,0.1...6384!8i8192 Wood Lane is very long so if there are lots of bus lanes there could be a vague location on PCN. I would imagine the signage still needs to be clear. What if someone turns in from one of the side roads? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5515417,0.1...6384!8i8192 How specific does the location details need to be? |
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 19:54
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21,018 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Anyway, whatever the times, if you can't read them you have to assume they apply at the time you approach. Absence of times = bus lane applies 24x7. That is the argument you'll get back if you submit reps saying you couldn't read the times, Harsh, yes, but difficult to overcome, I'm afraid.
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 20:19
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
Anyway, whatever the times, if you can't read them you have to assume they apply at the time you approach. Absence of times = bus lane applies 24x7. That is the argument you'll get back if you submit reps saying you couldn't read the times, Harsh, yes, but difficult to overcome, I'm afraid. Fair enough. Is there any challenge I can make regarding the specified location? |
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 20:56
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
you may as well challenge that you thought the lane was OK to use owing to blanked out part, plus the vague location.
Frankly at this time who knows what resources councils will have to deal with PCNs. With London bus lanes you also get an initial challenge stage before an enforcement notice. |
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 22:50
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
you may as well challenge that you thought the lane was OK to use owing to blanked out part, plus the vague location. Frankly at this time who knows what resources councils will have to deal with PCNs. With London bus lanes you also get an initial challenge stage before an enforcement notice. Okay thanks, will put forward a challenge. I'm not sure how to word it: "I am challenging this ticket as I was turning left and was unaware the bus lane was active due to the spray paint covering the times on the sign. Additionally, Wood Lane is a long road and as such is not specific enough for the location element of the PCN" |
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Sun, 22 Mar 2020 - 10:49
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
It's a no risk challenge as they will reoffer the discount. You will of course want to enclose the pic you took of sign.
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Sun, 22 Mar 2020 - 22:48
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
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Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 15:39
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
It's a no risk challenge as they will reoffer the discount. You will of course want to enclose the pic you took of sign. Sure. Is the wording I provided earlier okay? Not really, if you don't know where the allegation is said to have taken place, how could you go back to the exact location and get a photo of the sign? I would drop the vague locus argument and just concentrate on the sign, and also send a copy of the photos you've got. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 23:14
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
Not really, if you don't know where the allegation is said to have taken place, how could you go back to the exact location and get a photo of the sign? I would drop the vague locus argument and just concentrate on the sign, and also send a copy of the photos you've got. Just to point out, I never raised the point of the location being vague, I only included it as it was raised and I thought it might invalidate the ticket somehow but sure, I will go with what you have said. Given that this is a bus lane ticket, is there a time limit in which the council have to respond before the ticket becomes invalid or no? Thanks |
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Sun, 29 Mar 2020 - 12:08
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Just to point out, I never raised the point of the location being vague, I only included it as it was raised and I thought it might invalidate the ticket somehow but sure, I will go with what you have said. I'm not saying you raised it, I'm saying that it could invalidate the ticket but that augment can't work if you're also relying on photos of the sign you could only take if you know the location. So, basically you have to pick a strategy and stick to it, and as the signage argument is stronger, I'd go with that. Given that this is a bus lane ticket, is there a time limit in which the council have to respond before the ticket becomes invalid or no? No, but if the council takes more than 3 months or so without explanation, that can be deemed unfair at common law. On the other hand, the tribunal might well consider the current national emergency as a good enough reason for a delay. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 10:16
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
Well surprisingly they have responded quite fast with a rejection:
"We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle in a bus lane at a time when only buses are allowed there. When the bus lane rules are in force, crossing the white line into a bus lane - even with just part of your vehicle - is not allowed. The purpose of this is to keep the whole width and length of the bus lane free so that buses can have faster, safer journeys We have checked our CCTV footage and it is showing very clear that you have entered the Bus Lane earlier than you were allowed. It is unfortunate that you got the PCN in such circumstance that you have described, how-ever; we cannot justify its cancellation." My challenge was: "I am challenging this ticket as I was turning left and approaching the end of the bus lane, and was unaware the bus lane was active due to the spray paint covering the times on the sign." Fair enough on entering the bus lane but that have not addressed the graffiti on the sign at all. I will probably end up paying the discounted rate but there must be some legislation relating to the requirements of the sign? What if someone simply read it wrong? I understand the argument that the bus lane should be assumed active if the sign is illegible but this is something that should be sorted by the council asap - it's the only sign relating to that portion of the bus lane. |
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 10:29
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well at this point I'd take it all the way, the council's rejection appears to include a failure to consider. However, you need to upload the actual letter (just redact name and address) so that we can check it properly. A failure to consider can win on its own.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 11:27
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,319 |
Well at this point I'd take it all the way, the council's rejection appears to include a failure to consider. However, you need to upload the actual letter (just redact name and address) so that we can check it properly. A failure to consider can win on its own. How do you know the council failed to consider? The final sentence of their response, quoted by the OP, suggests that they did. This post has been edited by spaceman: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 11:27 |
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 12:23
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well at this point I'd take it all the way, the council's rejection appears to include a failure to consider. However, you need to upload the actual letter (just redact name and address) so that we can check it properly. A failure to consider can win on its own. How do you know the council failed to consider? Because the response is so generic that it could be used to respond to anything. It's as good a response to the OP's representation as it is to a representation saying "I got permission to drive in the bus lane from the gingerbread man". -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 16:06
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 20:22
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would definitely wait for the enforcement notice.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 20:40
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
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Fri, 8 May 2020 - 19:00
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Member No.: 108,321 |
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