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NIP 'without reasonable consideration' via Hire co
D4DANAGER
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 17:06
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Hi,

Any advice greatly appreciated on the following situation...

As part of an event back in mid-June I, along with a number of others, had access to several hired minibuses.

The organiser has received communication this week from the hire company that they [as registered keepers] had received an NIP late August for the alleged offence of "Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road/in a public place without reasonable consideration to other users". They sent a scanned copy of the original NIP to him of which I have a copy - it helpfully dates the offence as 21 June and the date the initial NIP was served to the registered keeper as 15 August. Excluding date of offence if my counting is correct that is 55 days.

Of course he has responded back to them with my details as rightly he should so I assume I will receive a new NIP within the next week or so.

Notwithstanding the fact I have no clue as to what I am supposed to have done (it was a company event, vehicles were being driven carefully and always within speed limits) surely this immediately falls foul of the requirement for police to, in the first instance, serve the registered keeper of the vehicle with a notice of intended prosecution within 14 days of the offence?

I intend to appeal on that basis but it has the added complexity of it coming via a hire company. I know that all bets become off for subsequent NIPs but it still stands the first should be received in the 14 day timeframe? This wasn't even served close to that! Can I use the RAC dispute template that is on this website with minor updates?

Thanks very much in advance for any advice.

D4D
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post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 17:06
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cp8759
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 17:12
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The first thing you need to do is check if the hire company is the registered keeper, if the minibus is leased and an earlier nip went to the leasing company, your strategy won't work.

In any case there is nothing to appeal as you haven't been convicted of anything.


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NewJudge
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 17:37
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The NIP is simply a notification that a prosecution is under consideration. As above, you cannot appeal a NIP. What you will also receive is a Section 172 request asking you to confirm you were the driver. Regardless of any issues with the NIP you must respond to this or you commit a separate offence which carries six points and a hefty fine.

Only the first NIP is subject to the 14 day rule. Late first NIPs are extremely rare and you need to know whose name is on the V5C and check the date the first NIP was served on them.
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D4DANAGER
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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Thanks for this so far. The NIP I've seen that went to the Hire Co does say "You are recorded as the Owner/Hirer/Keeper..." etc so I assumed it was the first NIP to be issued. I guess 'appeal' was the wrong word - I meant go down the time expired route as follows:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=87

I wouldn't mind but it isn't like this is unequivocal speeding - I genuinely have no idea what it is I am supposed to have done!
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peterguk
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:16
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QUOTE (D4DANAGER @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:15) *
Owner/Hirer/Keeper

None of which are necessarily the Registered Keeper.


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Jlc
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (D4DANAGER @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:15) *
You are recorded as the Owner/Hirer/Keeper...

It's a template. It's highly unlikely it was the first - there are also certain exceptions to the 14 day requirement.

QUOTE (D4DANAGER @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:15) *
I genuinely have no idea what it is I am supposed to have done!

You'll find out when naming the driver. Could be failing to give way, tailgating, wrong lane, lane hogging etc...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:27


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:07
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QUOTE (D4DANAGER @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:15) *
Thanks for this so far. The NIP I've seen that went to the Hire Co does say "You are recorded as the Owner/Hirer/Keeper..." etc so I assumed it was the first NIP to be issued.
What matters is the RK as recorded on the V5C for the hire vehicle. If you haven't actually seen the V5C, you're better off assuming that the first NIP was timely.

--Churchmouse
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D4DANAGER
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 10:44
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I called North Wales Police who confirmed the initial NIP was timely - as several you have suggested, it went via several organisations before it hit the vehicle firm who in turn will send it to me. I apparently passed too close to a cyclist who submitted the footage to the Police via 'Operation Snap'. As a fellow cyclist frankly I should know better so I'll have to see what the outcome is - points or a course etc.

In the meantime thanks for the replies here and I'll await my just desserts...
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disgrunt
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:48
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This wasnt you was it?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cYgF9E2-Fqs (NSFW- language used)

In all serious though, your initial post suggested that there were several potential drivers, as there is footage I'd request it to "help identify the driver" in case this is a case of a disgruntled cyclist sending in footage and the police just issuing NIPs whether an offence was committed or not.

It would also help you understand where you went wrong so you can improve your driving in future.

This post has been edited by disgrunt: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:50
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Slapdash
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 13:14
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There is, as I understand it, no set distance for "too close".

It all depends on the circumstances. I would want to be seeing the footage (if they will let you).
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The Rookie
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 15:19
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As an indication the Highway Code merely states that you should leave a cyclist as much room as you would leave a car, most police forces who have run campaigns (such as West Mids) suggest 1.5m as a minimum which means on most roads you need a clear lane coming the other way to pass and can’t just ‘squeeze past’.


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Jlc
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 15:26
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Lots of talk of a 'new law' (effective 29 June 2018), here for example.

Struggling to find any specific legislative changes. It seems more of a behavioural campaign and enforcement - such behaviour could always be pursued if it met the below expected standard criteria (safe and competent).

Can only reference this from Highway code 163:
QUOTE
give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car.


This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 15:32


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Churchmouse
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 22:27
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 16:19) *
As an indication the Highway Code merely states that you should leave a cyclist as much room as you would leave a car, most police forces who have run campaigns (such as West Mids) suggest 1.5m as a minimum which means on most roads you need a clear lane coming the other way to pass and can’t just ‘squeeze past’.

Around here, that means just enough (usually) to not kiss mirrors...

--Churchmouse
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facade
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 14:39
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 23:27) *
[
Around here, that means just enough (usually) to not kiss mirrors...

--Churchmouse


Ditto here, which is why they need to state a number (and then how do they measure it to say you were below it?......)

The too close could be because the OP is used to driving a narrower car and the van is a lot wider, higher seated, different viewpoint etc...
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