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Mobile phone tracking, Can a tracker be put on company mobile phones
Mayhem007
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 09:50
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A friend of mine is an operations manager for a compnay that supplies TV, internet and phone acess in hospitals. He is considering advising his employees, who travel between home and hospitals, about putting trackers on their company mobile phones.

What process does he have to go through to ensure it complies with the legal rights of the employees.


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post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 09:50
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StuartBu
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:27
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QUOTE (mashman36 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 18:08) *
Easy charge back the mileage .
We had a pool car/van with a mileage log book .
Log miles before n after company use if any more the employee paid at so much a mile.
That stopd the piss taking!

Or let them use the vehicles when not working with whatever tax liabilities that are incurred ( if any)
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Tartarus
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 18:24
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The second reason for installing trackers is to monitor the driving habits of the drivers, who in the fleet is speeding, or accelerating/braking too harshly (thus impacting fuel economy etc), and get scored accordingly. The same variables and factors used by insurance companies for assessing young drivers having them to keep their premiums down.
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StuartBu
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 22:11
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QUOTE (Tartarus @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 19:24) *
The second reason for installing trackers is to monitor the driving habits of the drivers, who in the fleet is speeding, or accelerating/braking too harshly (thus impacting fuel economy etc), and get scored accordingly. The same variables and factors used by insurance companies for assessing young drivers having them to keep their premiums down.

But the suggestion in this case is that the trackers would be installed in the drivers mobile phones not the vehicles.
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nigelbb
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 05:30
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (Tartarus @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 19:52) *
As someone who works for a company that provides mobile vehicle trackers, I can say with reasonably comfidence that the number one reason for installing them in vehicles is to stop drivers from using the vehicles for non-work related activities.


Pretty much on the nail. The main reason, they are trying to see if they can logistically dispense with one of the vehicles and still carry out normal operations, when the van leases expire. Some of the vehicles are clocking up miles, which penalizes the company.They are concerned about a small minority employees using the vehicle for their own purposes, as there is frequently extra miles on the speedo, in excess of a round trip to their place of work.


Finally we get to the real reason for tracking the employees. Dispensing with one of the vehicles will mean dispensing with the employee who drives it too. So this whole exercise is designed to provide a justification for firing one of the employees.


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Tartarus
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 14:29
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 23:11) *
QUOTE (Tartarus @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 19:24) *
The second reason for installing trackers is to monitor the driving habits of the drivers, who in the fleet is speeding, or accelerating/braking too harshly (thus impacting fuel economy etc), and get scored accordingly. The same variables and factors used by insurance companies for assessing young drivers having them to keep their premiums down.

But the suggestion in this case is that the trackers would be installed in the drivers mobile phones not the vehicles.

Yes, which then leads back to point #1, as noted above here, that it can't be then to do with anything about the vehicle performance (and modifying driver behaviour can lead to 5-10% improvement in fuel costs), and can solely be about tracking where the driver (and thus the vehicle) happen to be.
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peterguk
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 14:44
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 06:30) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (Tartarus @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 19:52) *
As someone who works for a company that provides mobile vehicle trackers, I can say with reasonably comfidence that the number one reason for installing them in vehicles is to stop drivers from using the vehicles for non-work related activities.


Pretty much on the nail. The main reason, they are trying to see if they can logistically dispense with one of the vehicles and still carry out normal operations, when the van leases expire. Some of the vehicles are clocking up miles, which penalizes the company.They are concerned about a small minority employees using the vehicle for their own purposes, as there is frequently extra miles on the speedo, in excess of a round trip to their place of work.


Finally we get to the real reason for tracking the employees. Dispensing with one of the vehicles will mean dispensing with the employee who drives it too. So this whole exercise is designed to provide a justification for firing one of the employees.


Don't see a problem. If an employee is using the vehicle outside of the policy he accepted and signed then get rid.


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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 17:41
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Always surprised at the consternation this creates. I carry a bleep (pager) at work so can be contacted any time but I don't really care because I'm at work, doing work stuff and thus being on call isn't a problem.

I used to work with someone who not only skived but syphoned diesel out of the van whilst skiving. Unfortunately that is just the way things are, 5% being **** ruin it for the rest of us.


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666
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 19:07
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 06:30) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (Tartarus @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 19:52) *
As someone who works for a company that provides mobile vehicle trackers, I can say with reasonably comfidence that the number one reason for installing them in vehicles is to stop drivers from using the vehicles for non-work related activities.


Pretty much on the nail. The main reason, they are trying to see if they can logistically dispense with one of the vehicles and still carry out normal operations, when the van leases expire. Some of the vehicles are clocking up miles, which penalizes the company.They are concerned about a small minority employees using the vehicle for their own purposes, as there is frequently extra miles on the speedo, in excess of a round trip to their place of work.


Finally we get to the real reason for tracking the employees. Dispensing with one of the vehicles will mean dispensing with the employee who drives it too. So this whole exercise is designed to provide a justification for firing one of the employees.

No, it's an attempt to improve efficiency, albeit not best thought through. If we know where employees are, then we can (maybe) deploy them better and (maybe) need fewer.

As a gross simplification, if we don't do it, our competitors certainly will. Ultimately, it's for the greater good of all our employees.
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bama
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 20:02
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QUOTE
and (maybe) need fewer.
it's for the greater good of all our employees.


how will you explain to the employess that puting them in the cross hairs for losing their job is to their benefit.
cognitive dissonace is one thing this but logical opposites are another.


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Mayhem007
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:32
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 05:30) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (Tartarus @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 19:52) *
As someone who works for a company that provides mobile vehicle trackers, I can say with reasonably comfidence that the number one reason for installing them in vehicles is to stop drivers from using the vehicles for non-work related activities.


Pretty much on the nail. The main reason, they are trying to see if they can logistically dispense with one of the vehicles and still carry out normal operations, when the van leases expire. Some of the vehicles are clocking up miles, which penalizes the company.They are concerned about a small minority employees using the vehicle for their own purposes, as there is frequently extra miles on the speedo, in excess of a round trip to their place of work.


Finally we get to the real reason for tracking the employees. Dispensing with one of the vehicles will mean dispensing with the employee who drives it too. So this whole exercise is designed to provide a justification for firing one of the employees.


I'm afraid you are way off the mark. All of the employees have different skill sets. If they were to get rid of someone they would need to fill that gap and train the new person up to fill the role.
Some employees live next to hospitals and drive their own vehicle to work. However they do not have the training to deal with minor or major technical issues, which means a person from another hospital has to travel from his hospital to another, using the company vehicle. A lot of the engineers cover a large area and therefore need the vehicle.
And yes there is a particular engineer who appears to be clocking up rather unusual miles, such that the company has to swap vehicles around to keep within the limited miles, in compliance with the contract of leased vehicles or face a penalty of 50p/mile.


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cp8759
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 17:28
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 17:32) *
And yes there is a particular engineer who appears to be clocking up rather unusual miles, such that the company has to swap vehicles around to keep within the limited miles, in compliance with the contract of leased vehicles or face a penalty of 50p/mile.

Well as you now know, it's fine to use vehicle tracking to monitor the mileage of employees, providing the employees are told beforehand that this is what the data will be used for, and the data is only kept for as long as necessary.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Unzippy
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 00:26
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 17:32) *
And yes there is a particular engineer who appears to be clocking up rather unusual miles, such that the company has to swap vehicles around to keep within the limited miles, in compliance with the contract of leased vehicles or face a penalty of 50p/mile.



Low tech answer that doesn't offend all your workforce:

Ask the particular engineer?
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DancingDad
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:28) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 17:32) *
And yes there is a particular engineer who appears to be clocking up rather unusual miles, such that the company has to swap vehicles around to keep within the limited miles, in compliance with the contract of leased vehicles or face a penalty of 50p/mile.

Well as you now know, it's fine to use vehicle tracking to monitor the mileage of employees, providing the employees are told beforehand that this is what the data will be used for, and the data is only kept for as long as necessary.

So it is vehicle tracking you want not phone tracking ?

I assume someone has done the calculations of the mileage expected against actual mileage ??


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TheDisapprovingB...
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:53
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
The main reason, they are trying to see if they can logistically dispense with one of the vehicles and still carry out normal operations, when the van leases expire. Some of the vehicles are clocking up miles, which penalizes the company.They are concerned about a small minority employees using the vehicle for their own purposes, as there is frequently extra miles on the speedo, in excess of a round trip to their place of work.


A phone tracker won't help that. Your proposed solution will give you bad data at best and cause you serious legal problems at worst.

QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
Putting trackers on the vehicles is excessive, more expensive and provides additional data that the company is not interested in.


How d'you figure? Putting trackers in vehicles does exactly what you want - it tracks a company asset. Putting a tracker on a phone only tracks a phone, and it's impossible to relate that data to the location of a vehicle.

QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
Having phone trackers does have some aspects of safety and client/customer care associated with it.
Where I work all the technicians have mobile phones, this is how we communicate on our massive sight; we don't radios. We also have regular set days when we are on call out and I personally have no problems if the company put a tracker on my phone.


If you're processing this level of personal data about your employees, you'd better have watertight processes in place surrounding access to that data. If you're really going to push "safety" as an angle - under what circumstances would you need to access this data to ensure safety? Is it only when you can't contact them by other means to ascertain their safety, or will you use it as the first step?Who authorises access to location data? How do you audit who accessed what data and when they did it, in line with the GDPR accountability principle? How do you disable tracking when employees finish work?

Your Data Protection Privacy Impact Assessment (which you'll be legally required to carry out under GDPR, since your proposed activities are likely to result in a high risk to the rights and freedoms of individuals) will need to answer all of these questions and a whole lot more.

Even more fun - you can't just ask for consent. Employee's generally can't consent to monitoring because of the power imbalance between employee and employer. This means that the processing must be necessary, for one or more of the purposes listed here:

Necessary for the performance or preparation of the employment contract
Necessary to comply with a legal obligation
Necessary to protect the vital interests of an employee or another natural person
Necessary for the fulfillment of a task carried out in the public interest or in the exercise of public authority
Necessary for the legitimate interests of the employer or a third party, unless the fundamental rights of the employee outweigh these interests

Note that this will probably still apply even if you're only tracking vehicles - however, if you don't allow personal use of vehicles, it's far easier to claim a legitimate interest in knowing where that vehicle is at all times. If you're tracking a device that somebody carries with them at all times, and they don't have the ability to disable the tracking themselves when they're not at work, you're opening a very unpleasant can of worms.
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Mayhem007
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 09:52
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QUOTE (TheDisapprovingBrit @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:53) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
The main reason, they are trying to see if they can logistically dispense with one of the vehicles and still carry out normal operations, when the van leases expire. Some of the vehicles are clocking up miles, which penalizes the company.They are concerned about a small minority employees using the vehicle for their own purposes, as there is frequently extra miles on the speedo, in excess of a round trip to their place of work.


A phone tracker won't help that. Your proposed solution will give you bad data at best and cause you serious legal problems at worst.

QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
Putting trackers on the vehicles is excessive, more expensive and provides additional data that the company is not interested in.


How d'you figure? Putting trackers in vehicles does exactly what you want - it tracks a company asset. Putting a tracker on a phone only tracks a phone, and it's impossible to relate that data to the location of a vehicle.

QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:05) *
Having phone trackers does have some aspects of safety and client/customer care associated with it.
Where I work all the technicians have mobile phones, this is how we communicate on our massive sight; we don't radios. We also have regular set days when we are on call out and I personally have no problems if the company put a tracker on my phone.


If you're processing this level of personal data about your employees, you'd better have watertight processes in place surrounding access to that data. If you're really going to push "safety" as an angle - under what circumstances would you need to access this data to ensure safety? Is it only when you can't contact them by other means to ascertain their safety, or will you use it as the first step?Who authorises access to location data? How do you audit who accessed what data and when they did it, in line with the GDPR accountability principle? How do you disable tracking when employees finish work?

Your Data Protection Privacy Impact Assessment (which you'll be legally required to carry out under GDPR, since your proposed activities are likely to result in a high risk to the rights and freedoms of individuals) will need to answer all of these questions and a whole lot more.

Even more fun - you can't just ask for consent. Employee's generally can't consent to monitoring because of the power imbalance between employee and employer. This means that the processing must be necessary, for one or more of the purposes listed here:

Necessary for the performance or preparation of the employment contract
Necessary to comply with a legal obligation
Necessary to protect the vital interests of an employee or another natural person
Necessary for the fulfillment of a task carried out in the public interest or in the exercise of public authority
Necessary for the legitimate interests of the employer or a third party, unless the fundamental rights of the employee outweigh these interests

Note that this will probably still apply even if you're only tracking vehicles - however, if you don't allow personal use of vehicles, it's far easier to claim a legitimate interest in knowing where that vehicle is at all times. If you're tracking a device that somebody carries with them at all times, and they don't have the ability to disable the tracking themselves when they're not at work, you're opening a very unpleasant can of worms.



Absolutely brilliant detailed response, which has given food for thought.

I am not aware that the technology of phone trackers are such that software or the provision of limited tracking during work time is possible and therefore I would be totally against the implementation of a phone tracker. I would imagine that the history and saving data of a phones location would incorporate its location out of working hours, which is totally wrong regardless if the data is ignored. To this end I will be recommending to my friend not to put forward to his company the idea of tracking phones. Even, as I was the one who initially suggested the idea.

My thoughts now are that they should endure the costs of a vehicle tracking system or leave things as they are.

Thanks for this post, I have copied and pasted this into a document, minus names, and will be handing it over to my friend.
Thanks to all the other posts, whilst it conjured up some angry responses, it has also given food for thought. Feel free to continue to offer any advice or stiff opposition to any other posts.

This post has been edited by Mayhem007: Sat, 19 May 2018 - 09:54


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big_mac
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 10:11
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sat, 19 May 2018 - 10:52) *
Feel free to continue to offer any advice or stiff opposition to any other posts.

Would a dashcam work? (presumably the aim is to dissuade unauthorised vehicle use).

You still need to be careful around the use / retention of data, but it has a much clearer business need than phone tracking.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 10:35
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I'm still thinking on that this is all about one employee.
If they are taking the pee, a discussion, possibly into formal warnings etc may be all that is needed.
The unexplained mileage may be perfectly justified, may not be but it seems that someone is assuming the worst at moment.

For example, years back I worked for a company where all expenses had to go through a jobsworth, who we will call Mary.
She kept a meticulous record of "Standard" journeys and woe betide anyone who deviated from the list.
One such standard was collecting urgent spare parts from Red Star at New Street Station.
Direct route was via main roads into Birmingham, went through neighbourhoods where you wanted all doors locked and guaranteed slow crawl.
12 miles round trip IIRC.
Alternative was straight onto M5 at junction 1, onto M6 south, off at Spaghetti and straight into city centre and train station, summat like 20 miles total.
So a choice, frustration in traffic and a 2 hour round trip or 40 minute trip with fast cruise (could be done then on M5/6) but almost double the mileage.
(and not paid for the extra)
It may simply be something like that but unless someone asks, no one will know.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sat, 19 May 2018 - 10:39
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glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 16:14
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If its vehicle tracking, the cost is very minimal- as someone suggested above, a dashcam can record GPS and you could do a download of that initially.

Or a hardwired kit with telematics will cost more but may produce longterm savings.

I take it your friend has already questioned the driver and reminded all staff about what they can and can't use their vans for?

I know where I work, I have a fuel card for whatever vehicle I take. I need to give my mileages and registrations driven at least once a month along with postcodes driven to/from. The system gives me a total mileage driven for each journey based on the postcodes, and if its different to my actual mileage, I have to justify it (never a problem though) and note details of the alternative route. Any miles unaccounted for (minimal/rare personal miles) are charged back to me at something like 15 or 18p per mile (its based on my total fuel spend in cars- not vans- divided by miles driven multiplied by unaccounted for miles).

Also- if your friend is being hit with 50ppm excess rates, I'd suggest he has signed a really rubbish deal on the vans, as I can't think of any small commercials where the current depreciation would that high for extra miles over and above the contracted.
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mashman36
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 17:21
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When office staff start scrutinizing the drivers route your on a hiding to nothing except contempt and resentment! Fact.
The driver is seeing real time issues and will take appropriate action if and when available someone dictating from an office breeds issues and ill feeling.
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Mayhem007
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 10:11
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QUOTE (big_mac @ Sat, 19 May 2018 - 10:11) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sat, 19 May 2018 - 10:52) *
Feel free to continue to offer any advice or stiff opposition to any other posts.

Would a dashcam work? (presumably the aim is to dissuade unauthorised vehicle use).

You still need to be careful around the use / retention of data, but it has a much clearer business need than phone tracking.


That's actually a bloody good idea. Nice one.

I contacted my friend yesterday and advised him that the implementation of phone tracking system might not be good idea after all. However, he has already put the suggestion to the senior managers and they have agreed with him. I am meeting with him today and intend to show him some of the posts up to yesterday.

Thanks for today's posts I will reply after I have spoken with him.

This post has been edited by Mayhem007: Sun, 20 May 2018 - 10:24


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