The 14 day rule |
The 14 day rule |
Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 14:29
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Hypothetical case
Going back to the Beckham ticket case. it was thrown out because this 14 day rule Elsewhere it has been said that a letter is deemed served two days after posting ,yet IIRC PPC first letters.. ie on ANPR enforced par parks do not seem to be covered by this, as recipients have been advised that it not delivered until after 14 days it is a win at POPLA, or do 'criminal cases' have a different set of parameters And then there are Bank holidays,3 in quick succession with Xmas involved ,is it 14 days from say 22/12 ( 14th day being 4/1/19) or 14 working days making it 16/1/2019 You can tell i have done all my Xmas shopping!! |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 14:29
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 14:57
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
14 Calendar days
PPC notices are deemed delivered two working days after posting Doesn't matter if it's first or second class post |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 15:23
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,400 Joined: 12 Jun 2008 From: West Sussex Member No.: 20,304 |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 16:18
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#4
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,221 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
PPC notices are deemed delivered two working days after posting Doesn't matter if it's first or second class post Do you have an authority for this -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 16:26
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,587 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
...because the PPC says so on their notices. They can't ever be wrong as there would be carmageddon otherwise.
This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 16:26 -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 16:28
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
PPC notices are deemed delivered two working days after posting Doesn't matter if it's first or second class post Do you have an authority for this I’m going to go with s 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 for 5 points please. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 16:38
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,825 Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Member No.: 24,123 |
Deemed service only applies if you're talking about POFA.
POFA describes deemed service as, Para 8 (6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales. Para 9 (6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales. Bizarrely no distinction between classes of post. The interpretation act only applies where an act doesn't define the times. If you aren't arguing about pofa then there is no deemed service, but also no real deadlines either. Interpretation Act 1978, Section 7 This states:- "7. Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expressions "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post." If you feel the need to argue about postal times for other reasons you could bring in the practice direction relating to the interpretation act. Practice Direction - Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail "With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore. 1. Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post. 2. To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:- (a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting; (b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting. 3. "Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday. 4. Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used. 5. This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process. 8 March 1985 J R BICKFORD SMITH Senior Master Queen's Bench Division PPC notices are deemed delivered two working days after posting Doesn't matter if it's first or second class post Do you have an authority for this I’m going to go with s 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 for 5 points please. You typed this after i started my post |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 16:59
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Is RSC Ord 10 still in force?
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 17:53
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If you feel the need to argue about postal times for other reasons you could bring in the practice direction relating to the interpretation act. I'm pretty sure that has been superseded by CPR 6.26: Method of service: 1. First class post (or other service which provides for delivery on the next business day) Deemed date of service: The second day after it was posted, left with, delivered to or collected by the relevant service provider provided that day is a business day; or if not, the next business day after that day. As an aside, rule 6.20 allows for "first class post, document exchange or other service which provides for delivery on the next business day, in accordance with Practice Direction 6A" but as far as I can see second class post is not permitted at all. Of course, this is only if you want to start talking about the CPR and associated PDs... -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 20:27
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
If i have got this correct, it doesn't matter, as long as it was posted today, 24 Dec even if it arrives Wed 2 Jan it is still deemed to have arrived on Friday 28th?
( added to ask) and the letter must have arrived by the 14th day of the 'infringement' rather thet postec out within the 14 days Sorry to ask but if asked i ike to give correct info, Oh and to all on the Fprum Have a Good Xmas and New Year, and thanks for all the distant learning over the years, which as you can see i am still doing Ahh just seen the reply below If otherwised proved ,could mean that if you got the postie to sign the envelope giving the date of delivery? This post has been edited by bobthesod: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 20:36 |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 20:33
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,825 Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Member No.: 24,123 |
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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 20:34
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If i have got this correct, it doesn't matter, as long as it was posted today, 24 Dec even if it arrives Wed 2 Jan it is still deemed to have arrived on Friday 28th? As a general rule yes, though we don't know what "it" is that was posted. Are we talking about a letter? Invoice? NIP? s172 request? s172 response? Christmas card? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 00:34
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Sorry CP
I was thinking of a parking invoice from a PPC where the in and out is covered by ANPR I would assume Day 1 is the day of the occurrence Lets use Dec 7 Do they then have 14 days to send the invoice out , Dec 21? with a deemed served date of Dec 27 to be withing the guidelines Or am i thinking too deeply into what nefarious methods they might use to rectify an error in their timing eg backdating the letter ( would they ever do such a thing lol) and with the posting date outwith the 14 days, claim postal delay and that is was delivered in the presumed 2 day window from the letter date ) Rea,lising they didnt get it out in time using a letter date of fri 21 but deliberately posting it after last collection Mon 24 and then claiming presumed delivered ( BH excepted) on Fri 28 when in fact it may be be actually deilvered until the Sat or even later Or does the 14 day 'rule' take possible scenarios like this into account? This is purely hypothetical, that's why it is in the Flame pit...as i said earlier distant learning!! Must the letter arrive no later than 26 (12 +14) But as When would day 14 be? |
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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 09:59
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,825 Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Member No.: 24,123 |
PPCs will just say they're not using POFA and pursue you under a reasonable assumption you were the driver. Some courts see through that nonsense and some won't.
Multiple choice, innit. |
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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 10:43
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,587 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
It's days - bank holidays etc. don't matter (i.e. it's their issue)
We will get a few new cases in the new year with the exact question I expect... -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 13:24
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,770 Joined: 17 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,602 |
Sorry CP I was thinking of a parking invoice from a PPC where the in and out is covered by ANPR I would assume Day 1 is the day of the occurrence Lets use Dec 7 Do they then have 14 days to send the invoice out , Dec 21? with a deemed served date of Dec 27 to be withing the guidelines For the purposes of holding the Registered Keeper liable for parking charges incurred by the driver using POFA 2012 the Notice To Keeper must be delivered within 14 days if there was no windscreen ticket. In this case the date of the parking "crime" is Day 0. So in your example if the "crime" was on December 7th 2018 then the NTK must arrive by by Friday December 21st so postmarked at latest on Wednesday the 19th. -------------------- British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012 |
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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 14:03
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,337 Joined: 4 Jan 2007 Member No.: 9,897 |
Sorry CP I was thinking of a parking invoice from a PPC where the in and out is covered by ANPR I would assume Day 1 is the day of the occurrence Lets use Dec 7 Do they then have 14 days to send the invoice out , Dec 21? with a deemed served date of Dec 27 to be withing the guidelines For the purposes of holding the Registered Keeper liable for parking charges incurred by the driver using POFA 2012 the Notice To Keeper must be delivered within 14 days if there was no windscreen ticket. In this case the date of the parking "crime" is Day 0. So in your example if the "crime" was on December 7th 2018 then the NTK must arrive by by Friday December 21st so postmarked at latest on Wednesday the 19th. most of the PPCs are to tight to use RM amd use private companies , and in a lot of cases no postmark on envelope |
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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 17:45
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Sorry CP I was thinking of a parking invoice from a PPC where the in and out is covered by ANPR Is the invoice sent as part of any relevant pre-action protocol? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 12:52
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Oh well,
Th hypothetical is now practical The car has been caught, although the dates are all wrong on my part brain fade, however they have exceeded the 14 days No ticket on windscreen ANPR controlled Parked on 12 Dec Date of notice 2 Jan Letter received 4 Jan Also the letter isworded exactly as the Britannia one in stormybeachs- 'Britannia 18 min overstay' So i have two failures on POFA exceeding time limit and saying should but not 'inviting' me to give them the drivers name But is there a third? Lets say the HO of Tescsainmorrlidi be in Peterborough, and they also have a store there, if the location is given as Peterborough-Tescsainmorrlid could this be considered Vague locus? as it does not specify which site ( not that i know if ANPR operates at the HO), if so it is another point to hit them with I am keeping this here as i feel confident enough to' go on two wheels' without someone holding the saddle, but will ask please stay close behind...just in case i need to go to POPLA Happy New Year to all This post has been edited by bobthesod: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 12:57 |
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