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Luton Airport APCOA PCN to the RK
vw.andi
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 02:32
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Got this PCN through the post to the RK "for the alleged contravention of Dropping off or picking up outside
designated areas at London Luton Airport Central Terminal Area..."
I was not driving the vehicle at that material time.
The date of issue of this notice stated 26 days after the alleged contravention and reached me on day 30.
There is no POFA mentioned on the back of the letter anyway and no any indications that I legally required
to provide them with the driver's details.
As I understand they cannot make me liable for this charge as the RK and I don't have to name the driver?

http://i64.tinypic.com/2igezi1.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/28k2dsp.jpg
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post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 02:32
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The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:07
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You need the stock 'bog off' letter as written by Ostell with an added line stating that for the avoidance of any doubt you were NOT the driver at the time and cannot be held liable by any mechanism.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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ostell
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:27
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This one?


Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

I was not the driver at the time and as there is no legal requirement to identify the driver I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


First class post with free certificate of posting from a post office
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vw.andi
post Sun, 1 Sep 2019 - 17:09
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Thank you, ostell

So, I just need to send them the letter and skip their internal

appeal process and don't need to ask them for a POPLA code?
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ostell
post Sun, 1 Sep 2019 - 17:26
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That IS your appeal.

They are supposed to automatically send a POPLA code if they reject the appeal
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vw.andi
post Sun, 1 Sep 2019 - 17:40
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Do I need to make sure that they will receive this letter within their 28 days deadline?

Thank you!
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ostell
post Sun, 1 Sep 2019 - 17:43
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Yes, or they may refuse to consider the appeal
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vw.andi
post Sun, 1 Sep 2019 - 17:54
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Right... I'm running out of time then, as I'm on my holidays now, so I will be better to appeal through their website.
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Dave65
post Mon, 2 Sep 2019 - 12:48
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If you do be careful if there is a drop down box, trying to make you tick "you were the driver".

Take a screen shot of the filled in form also.

Otherwise post 1st class with free certificate of posting from the post office.
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bama
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 21:32
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have they (in fact) repealed (as opposed tomerely saying they 'don't use them') the airport byelaws ?

if not then byelaws means POFa does not apply


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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vw.andi
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 13:28
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Received email "Outcome of challenge to Parking Charge Notice" with appeal rejection.

They referring to Bye-laws:

"Bye-laws are conditions set in a Magistrates Court. It is a criminal offence to provide inaccurate information, or to withhold
information where required.
As mentioned above, APCOA have not claimed to, and do not work, issue or seek payment under POFA as this land is
covered by Bye-laws."

Need your help now to make a POPLA appeal.
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ManxRed
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 13:40
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Oh dear! They've stated that the registered keeper 'maintains' (sic) liability under the byelaws.

I don't even know where to begin with that legally incorrect and misleading statement. The person who wrote it is probably five years old or under.

What I do know is that they have no means of transferring liability from the driver (who was always - and still is - liable) to the Keeper, unless they follow PoFA, and they've now written to you confirming that they are not using that legislation. Therefore, the driver is liable, and always will be.

Your POPLA appeal should simply focus on their admission that they are not attempting to hold the keeper liable (they CANNOT do this under byelaws) and they don't know who the driver is. The end. Simples, to quote a celebrity Meerkat off of the telly.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 13:44
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QUOTE (vw.andi @ Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 14:28) *
Bye-laws are conditions set in a Magistrates Court.

No, they are enforced there, not set there.

And what exactly is an 'allegation of contravention'.

The education system has truly gone to pot!

If the APCOA signs at Luton are as risible as they are at Birmingham then there is inadequate notification anyway.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 13:48


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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vw.andi
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 14:45
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QUOTE (vw.andi @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 02:32) *
Got this PCN through the post to the RK "for the alleged contravention of Dropping off or picking up outside
designated areas at London Luton Airport Central Terminal Area..."
I was not driving the vehicle at that material time.
The date of issue of this notice stated 26 days after the alleged contravention and reached me on day 30.
There is no POFA mentioned on the back of the letter anyway and no any indications that I legally required
to provide them with the driver's details.
As I understand they cannot make me liable for this charge as the RK and I don't have to name the driver?

http://i64.tinypic.com/2igezi1.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/28k2dsp.jpg


Copy of the original NTK attached here as the TinyPic website closed
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The Rookie
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 15:14
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So no suggestion of keeper liability at all. So no you have no liability at all.

POPLA appeal, no keeper liability and state clearly you were not the driver .


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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vw.andi
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 20:23
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There is a draft of my POPLA appeal at Post #21.

I am very grateful for any assistance given.

This post has been edited by vw.andi: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 10:54
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 07:16
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Why two headings for POFA non compliance (1 and 10)? Its ONE topic only
Have not relevant land first - they can NEVER use POFA, so go that route first then, if somehow POPLA cock up, you then have the POFA fails to fall back on.

14) Is merely another POFA fail, failing to specify the relevant land.

11) is not right, sort of. Their KADOE contract states they can request data to ask for the drivers identity if they arent using POFA, you can argue that they shoujd cease once you tell them you wont say who the driver is, however POPLA wont really care.

They dont *breach* POFA. They just fail to meet the obligations of it.
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vw.andi
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 09:54
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Thank you nosferatu1001

I will change those points you've mentioned.

I got this draft as a template from the similar case on the MSE forum and edited it to my circumstances.
That was the latest successful appeal which has been withdrawn by the operator.


There is edited version of my POPLA appeal at Post #22.

This post has been edited by vw.andi: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 15:34
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 12:52
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For your new "2"I would personally state - in the alternative, if POPLA finds that this is indeed relevant land....

Basically you dont accept it is relevant land, but just in case POPLA are that stupid...
I dont like links -= POPLA assessors cant or wont follow them consistently. As long as your link info is also covered in the file (I didnt check it) you are OK
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vw.andi
post Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 09:54
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Thank you nosferatu1001

I've made some changes as you suggested and removed links.

There is edited version of my POPLA appeal at Post #22.

This post has been edited by vw.andi: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 15:35
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