PCN on a double yellow while loading/unloading, it was outside of the the "no loading/unloading" times |
PCN on a double yellow while loading/unloading, it was outside of the the "no loading/unloading" times |
Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 07:44
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
Hi,
yesterday I got a PCN while collecting an order on behalf of Ubereats. I parked on the double yellow as I believed I was covered under the loading/unloading. I got a ticket within 3 minutes. It was outside the restricted no unloading/loading time. I appealed informally and this is the councils' reply: "Thank you for writing to us regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice and enclosing a job sheet. We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice. You were given a Penalty Charge Notice for parking on a double yellow line. Double yellow lines mean no parking at any time, except to load or unload. However, the Civil Enforcement Officer watched your vehicle and saw no loading or unloading taking place. Because the rule applies 24 hours a day, seven days a week, double yellow lines do not need to be accompanied by a sign. Any loading or unloading needs to be carried out and then the vehicle moved straight after. For example, drivers are allowed time to carry goods or equipment into a building, but not time to install or unpack them. It seems you were parked for longer than you needed for the loading or unloading that you did. Also, the Civil Enforcement Officer watched your vehicle and saw no loading or unloading taking place" I can't understand how the enforcement officer can observe and issue a ticket in 3 minutes and then they say I stayed longer than I needed to unload. I am attaching a picture of the ticket and the Ubereats waybill if that will help. I submitted these documents on my appeal but it did not change their mind. I appreciate any help you can provide. Thank you. Councils' images Location https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4701563,-...6384!8i8192 This post has been edited by chopperdave: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 08:12 |
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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 07:44
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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 20:48
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
In fact you if you look at the car picture you can see I am in the frame, and it was taken at 23.03pm. Potentially a big help, particularly because you're stepping off the kerb towards the driver's door. How do I use it for my case? You need to wait for the Notice to Owner, at which point you can make a formal representation. The fact that you're in the picture will rebut any CEO notes that suggest no driver was seen. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:00
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
In fact you if you look at the car picture you can see I am in the frame, and it was taken at 23.03pm. Potentially a big help, particularly because you're stepping off the kerb towards the driver's door. How do I use it for my case? You need to wait for the Notice to Owner, at which point you can make a formal representation. The fact that you're in the picture will rebut any CEO notes that suggest no driver was seen. Thank you very much. I will wait for the NTO and appeal and update then. |
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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 21:21
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I will wait for the NTO and appeal and update then. Post the Notice to Owner on here when you get it. Don't send anything to the council without getting us to check it first. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 - 01:57
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 08:21
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,768 Joined: 17 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,602 |
There is no loading/unloading exemption on double yellow lines for a private individual collecting a small carrier bag of hot food. Normally the loading/unloading exemption applies to heavy or bulky items for which use of a vehicle is necessary. A a small carrier bag is not bulky or heavy & Ubereats couriers can be using a bicycle it seems that a vehicle is not necessary either https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/delivery/
I am dubious that a loading/unloading exemption applies in this case even though it is the course of commerce. The OP states that there was parking 100-150 yards away i.e. about a 1 minute walk. However they chose to park right outside the takeaway. It seems most analogous to the case of the estate agent dropping off a key that was held to not qualify in https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...r%20Hamlets.pdf -------------------- British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012 |
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 08:32
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
There is no loading/unloading exemption on double yellow lines for a private individual collecting a small carrier bag of hot food. Normally the loading/unloading exemption applies to heavy or bulky items for which use of a vehicle is necessary. A a small carrier bag is not bulky or heavy & Ubereats couriers can be using a bicycle it seems that a vehicle is not necessary either https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/delivery/ I am dubious that a loading/unloading exemption applies in this case even though it is the course of commerce. The OP states that there was parking 100-150 yards away i.e. about a 1 minute walk. However they chose to park right outside the takeaway. It seems most analogous to the case of the estate agent dropping off a key that was held to not qualify in https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...r%20Hamlets.pdf The Council appear to have recognised and accepted the exemption, rightly or wrongly. Why knock it? This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 09:10 -------------------- |
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 08:55
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
@nigelbb, this comes back to my original question about the mechanics of Ubereats e.g. work allocation.
IF being allocated the work is not contingent upon the mode of transport, then the OP should tell us. Having read the Ubereats site, IMO it is contingent i.e. the app factors-in the transport mode and only allocates to those signed in who have the necessary transport for the work in hand. In this case the OP needs to tell us (forget the council for the moment, as per Neil B they are not making this an issue) how this works. OP, there is another thread running at the moment regarding loading. The problem there, as here, is that OPs only see matters from their perspective. You left your vehicle unattended on DYL for at least the period of observation. It's not a CEO's job to wait around for an extended period to find out why or to guess: at this stage it is what it is. What you find is that the problem lies with the numpties at the authority who fail to consider the other side of the issue objectively when explained in the form of reps i.e. the CEO must have had a valid reason and we're not going to side with you. Pathetic but common. Thankfully adjudicators are less biased. |
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 12:22
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,768 Joined: 17 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,602 |
There is no loading/unloading exemption on double yellow lines for a private individual collecting a small carrier bag of hot food. Normally the loading/unloading exemption applies to heavy or bulky items for which use of a vehicle is necessary. A a small carrier bag is not bulky or heavy & Ubereats couriers can be using a bicycle it seems that a vehicle is not necessary either https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/delivery/ I am dubious that a loading/unloading exemption applies in this case even though it is the course of commerce. The OP states that there was parking 100-150 yards away i.e. about a 1 minute walk. However they chose to park right outside the takeaway. It seems most analogous to the case of the estate agent dropping off a key that was held to not qualify in https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...r%20Hamlets.pdf The Council appear to have recognised and accepted the exemption, rightly or wrongly. Why knock it? I won't sure that they had accepted the exemption. It read to me like a standard template response & specifically they didn't acknowledge that the OP was exempted from DYLs because they were loading a small carrier bag of hot food. This post has been edited by nigelbb: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 12:23 -------------------- British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012 |
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 12:45
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Just had a re read of Bosworth
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...r%20Hamlets.pdf I would suggest that this case falls under paragraph (e) of the conclusions -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 13:23
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
It read to me like a standard template response & specifically they didn't acknowledge that the OP was exempted from DYLs because they were loading a small carrier bag of hot food. I think you are possibly right about a template rejection but maybe with specific bits filled in. " It seems you were parked for longer than you needed for the loading or unloading that you did." Even if if the whole thing was a stock response I'd argue they should be held to what they've said. They certainly haven't disputed loading, just the time taken -------------------- |
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 13:35
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 10 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,869 |
QUOTE (nigelbb) It seems most analogous to the case of the estate agent dropping off a key that was held to not qualify The reason why the analogue fails is that an Ubereats driver will make multiple deliveries per hour. The analogue is closure to a courier. " In the Panel’s judgment it would be wholly unrealistic to expect, for example, a DHL courier to ask himself every time he parked whether his next parcel was big enough to qualify" As for car vs bicycle, I do not think that it matters whether the goods were too big for a bicycle: QUOTE What matters is that the goods shall be delivered from the vehicle or collected by the vehicle, and not merely that the driver shall for convenience use the vehicle to deliver or collect things which are or can be reasonably carried by him personally. In other words, it seems to me that the relevant question is to ask whether it is reasonably necessary to have the vehicle in the street adjacent to the premises for the purpose of collection or delivery of the goods or merchandise. Here the goods require the vehicle rather than it being for convenience. That the "vehicle" might be a bicycle or car doesn't mean that the car is used for convenience. This post has been edited by zwekk: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 13:50 |
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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 13:48
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
It seems most analogous to the case of the estate agent dropping off a key that was held to not qualify While I agree with your last post, would you mind checking your use of the quote facility. -------------------- |
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Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 22:55
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
There is no loading/unloading exemption on double yellow lines for a private individual collecting a small carrier bag of hot food. Normally the loading/unloading exemption applies to heavy or bulky items for which use of a vehicle is necessary. A a small carrier bag is not bulky or heavy & Ubereats couriers can be using a bicycle it seems that a vehicle is not necessary either https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/delivery/ I am dubious that a loading/unloading exemption applies in this case even though it is the course of commerce. The OP states that there was parking 100-150 yards away i.e. about a 1 minute walk. However they chose to park right outside the takeaway. It seems most analogous to the case of the estate agent dropping off a key that was held to not qualify in https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...r%20Hamlets.pdf Just to clarify, I meant the place I parked was 150 yards from the shop and it was double yellow, there was no availlable alternative parking nearby. And I don’t know how to respond to your other point. Most hot food, such as pizza or other takeaways are felivered in cars or motorcyles as a matter of course. Apologies for the wording in the original post. @nigelbb, this comes back to my original question about the mechanics of Ubereats e.g. work allocation. IF being allocated the work is not contingent upon the mode of transport, then the OP should tell us. Having read the Ubereats site, IMO it is contingent i.e. the app factors-in the transport mode and only allocates to those signed in who have the necessary transport for the work in hand. In this case the OP needs to tell us (forget the council for the moment, as per Neil B they are not making this an issue) how this works. OP, there is another thread running at the moment regarding loading. The problem there, as here, is that OPs only see matters from their perspective. You left your vehicle unattended on DYL for at least the period of observation. It's not a CEO's job to wait around for an extended period to find out why or to guess: at this stage it is what it is. What you find is that the problem lies with the numpties at the authority who fail to consider the other side of the issue objectively when explained in the form of reps i.e. the CEO must have had a valid reason and we're not going to side with you. Pathetic but common. Thankfully adjudicators are less biased. I don’t know the inner workings of how work is located but I had to register my car, get food courier insurance and I cannot use other modes of transport or even another car without informing UberEats. I have yet to recieve the NTo, shall I call them up and enquire? Normally it arrives very quickly. |
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Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 23:36
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
It can take up to six months for the NtO to arrive. At this stage the only thing you should do is check that the name and address on the V5C is 100% correct (don't assume, actually go and check it).
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:38
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 14:40
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
I got the NTO today, I am ready to file an appeal and I wrote it this way.
What do you guys think? Grounds for representation: The alleged contravention did not occur. I am hereby appealing the PCN received on the 19th of January 2019 at 23.02pm. I am appealing because I was undertaking a food courier business at the time of the alleged contravention and I was therefore exempt from the restriction. I was parked for less than 3 minutes while I collected goods from a nearby shop, and I returned to the vehicle while your parking enforcement officer was taking the last picture, and he captured me stepping towards my car preparing to leave (image 3). The Parking Enforcement Officer observed less than 3 minutes before handing out the ticket: On this issue the adjudicators have stated: "Councils should not automatically assume that because no sign of loading was seen during a five minute or other observation period, loading cannot have been taking place" (Bosworth and Others vs LB Tower Hamlet) Furthermore I quote the adjudicators decision regarding the issue of courier business undertaking.: "......However, in the case of couriers or professional deliverers of goods on a delivery round, this commercial context would lead the Panel to conclude that this is certainly the sort of activity for which the exemption is designed - even if an individual item being delivered at any one point is small and easily carried in the hand. In the Panel’s judgment it would be wholly unrealistic to expect, for example, a DHL courier to ask himself every time he parked whether his next parcel was big enough to qualify; or to require the milkman to find a parking bay every time he stopped to deliver a bottle of milk. The exemption to waiting restrictions and the provision of loading bays are, in the Panel’s view, designed exactly to allow the carrying on of essential commercial activity of this kind." (Bosworth and Others vs LB Tower Hamlet) I will also be attaching proof that I was on delivery. Is this a good way of writing the appeal? I would appreciate any input or feedback or help. I have never done this before |
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 14:43
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The key question here is what proof of commercial activity will you be providing?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 15:02
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
I will be providng a screenshot of the delivery/collection details I was undertaking. Also the fact that I was back to my car within 3 minutes.
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 15:07
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I will be providng a screenshot of the delivery/collection details I was undertaking. Also the fact that I was back to my car within 3 minutes. As long as you provide evidence of a commercial delivery for UberEats, they will probably cancel. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 15:15
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Member No.: 102,055 |
I will be providng a screenshot of the delivery/collection details I was undertaking. Also the fact that I was back to my car within 3 minutes. As long as you provide evidence of a commercial delivery for UberEats, they will probably cancel. Even though they rejected the same evidence when I unofficially appealed? |
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