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City of Westminster. PCN, Has procedure/compliance been carried out correctly?
TINBASHER
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 16:03
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Dear Gents and Ladies,
Whilst not going into great detail at this point in time i.e. posting copies of numerous correspondence etc could one of you much enlightened and no doubt more up to date fellows give me you initial thoughts on this current escapade my company is going through with what appears to be a bunch of automatons.


We are now at correspondence number 23 and my question revolves around procedure/compliance with how these matters should be dealt with. Personally I am not too bothered if they read this as for the past 30 odd years the inevitable consequence of carrying out contract work in London is to be on the receiving end of a overzealous parking tax but Hey Ho we have nearly always paid the PCNs as its more hassle than its worth going through the rigmarole of contesting them but on this occasion I have the bit between my teeth....


Proof of postage obtained with all our correspondence.

1. 05-07-2017 - PCN issued. City of Westminster.

2. 05-07-2017 - Written challenge and representations posted to City of Westminster.

3. 13-07-2017 - Letter received from C.o.W rejecting our challenge against PCN. Offered Option 1. pay or 2 Make a formal Representation. We chose to await the NtO and thus make formal representations appealing against the PCN. The letter also stated the procedure for doing so will be explained on the NtO.

4. 16-08-2017 NtO. Received 17th- 08-2017. We reply with written Challenge and make representations.

5. We awaiting a reply but received no correspondence until....

6. 09-10-2017 - Charge Certificate received.

7. 10-10-2017 - We post letter acknowledging C/C, we also state the events leading up to this date as above and make it clear that we have to date not received any correspondence or a reply to our written Challenge and representations. ( it was latter we learnt the correspondence we should have received is a so called Letter of Rejection)

8. 16-10-2107 - Letter received from Marston Dept recovery dated 13-10-2017 stating we had not complied with the C/C .

9. 16-10-2017 - Reply sent to Marston Recovery and copied to Westminster Parking stating we have sent representations but as to date received no reply therefore we have complied. We requested messers Marston refer the matter back to Westminster Parking as we wish to appeal to the Independent Adjudicator if the challenge was rejected.

10. 20-10-2017 - Letter received dated 18-10-2016 from Westminster parking thanking us for our correspondence regarding the charge certificate. They then go on to state a NtO was sent and that they received our representation and that a NoR was subsequently sent to us.

They also state they had received no payment or appeal to the London Tribunals therefore a Charge Certificate was issued increasing the amount by 50%

They then thank us for the information we supplied advising them did not receive a response to our formal representations but it is now too late for the City council to consider a representation against a PCN and payment of the current charge is required.

it cont... If payment is not received reg with county court.... order for recovery of dept etc . Letter goes on to state four options under a witness statement...

11. 30-10-2017 Letter from City Westminster dated 25-10-2017. Again referring to our letter regarding the C-C and Repeating statement that its too late for the council to consider Representations in respect of the PCN. The letter then repeats previous correspondence i.e. four options under a witness statement etc.

12. 01-11-2107. We forward letter to CoW stating we have replied immediately to all their correspondence be it the PCN, charge certificate etc so how is it too late for the council to consider representations given we have not received a NoR...

We again state in capital letters WE HAVE NOT RECIEVED A NoR, We will therefore make a witness statement to this effect.

13. 08-11-2017 Letter from City Westminster dated 06-11-2017.

YIPPEEEE... they sent us a Copy of the NoR dated 07-09-2017 but it did not have a copy of the form to appeal to the Adjudicator and the covering letter still states its too late to make representations etc and goes on to repeat the court blurp etc.

14. 13-11-2017. We forward letter confirming receipt of the copy NoR but it did not have a copy of the form to appeal to the Adjudicator.... We ask for this form to allow us to appeal to the adjudicator.... which is what we have been trying to do all long....

15. 22-11-2017. Letter from City Westminster dated 20-11-2017. Again referring to our letter regarding the C-C and Repeating statement that its too late for the council to consider Representations in respect of the PCN. The letter then repeats previous correspondence i.e. four options under a witness statement etc.

16. 27-11-2017. We reply again stating we will make a witness statement on the grounds we did not receive the original NoR.

17. 31-11-2107 Received forms TE3 and TE9 (order for recovery and witness statement forms). Sent them the history of this long drawn out saga and basically state we have been denied our right to appeal to the adjudicator despite us writing umpteen letters stating we have not receive the original NoR together with the forms to appeal to the adjudicator.

18. Letter from City Westminster dated 01-12-2017. Again Repeating statement that its too late for the council to consider Representations in respect of the PCN. The letter then repeats previous correspondence i.e. four options under a witness statement etc.

19. 07-12-2017 Received the county courts notification that a statutory declaration/witness statement has been filed - unpaid penalty charge
Quote " The respondent filed a statutory declaration statement on 07-12-2017. It is ordered that the order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge be revoked. It is further ordered that the charge certificate be cancelled"

20. 12-12-2017. We send letter to CoW parking stating we have received the above from the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

21. Letter from City Westminster dated 18-12-2017. It notes our previous correspondence and states that on receipt of the Revocation order the city council will review the case and take the appropriate action.

22. 03-01-2018 we forward a letter confirming receipt of their letter of 18-12-2017

23. 05-12-2018 Letter from City Westminster dated 02-01-2018 . CoW state they have received notification of our witness statement submission to the traffic enforcement Centre regarding the PCN.

They confirm that we indicated we made Formal Representations following the issue of the NtO but received no reply and for this reason the council have reverted the case allowing then to reissue a new response...

The council have issued us with a NoR and at long last the forms to appeal to the adjudicator....

Would have saved one hell of a long time if they had just sent us one once we informed them we hadn't received a reply but hey Ho


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
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post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 16:03
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 16:29
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Marstons being involved pre OfR and debt registration is the only bit that seems wrong on the council part. If you have proof of posting then the issue of a CC pre NoR might be a ground for appeal


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TINBASHER
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 16:35
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yes have proof of posting for all correspondence


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 17:03
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QUOTE (TINBASHER @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 16:35) *
yes have proof of posting for all correspondence


The law requires that when the CC and OfR are revoked for non receipt of a NoR then the case should be referred to an adjudicator for direction.

Read the chapter on Stat decs and referrals on page 23 this doc

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...-16%20final.pdf

It seems that E&TA have given a guidance that the to re issue of the NoR is the way to go i do not read it as such so there may be a PI there


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 19:33
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If you are concentrating on procedure then you must determine two things:-

1. If any of the steps taken by Westminster have been premature --for instance the involvement of Marstons before the OFR.

2. Whether any of Westminster's statements are factually incorrect such as "too late to consider anything".

If they have acted prematurely this is regarded as a procedural impropriety (PI) which will win the case on its own. Likewise a PI exists if they have fettered their discretion by telling "porkies".

Mick
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DancingDad
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 19:43
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There would seem to be a definite PI with Marstons being involved prior to the earliest date where council could send an Order for Recovery.
And nothing I am reading in that list would seem to be an Order for Recovery, at least not with TE3 and TE9 included.

But whether an adjudicator would find on this as they seem to regard an Order from TEC as wiping the slate clean.
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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:45
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Ok here are in date order the list of correspondence















Cont

This post has been edited by TINBASHER: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:17


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
Go to the top of the page
 
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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:58
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Cont





















cont


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
Go to the top of the page
 
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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:08
Post #9


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cont




--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:22
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Well I was going to post thumbs of all the correspondence but I appear to have hit the limit...


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
Go to the top of the page
 
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:24
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At this moment there is still a CC live so an order for recovery could be on the way, you need to contact the council and ask them if they have issued, and if not when they intend to do so.

Second, any appeal you make before a Stat dec would be out of time so a reason would be needed. You have one looking at the photos on the NTO you will not win on the contravention, there are double kerb blips (no loading at any time ) so you should not have been there.
There is a major abuse of process, that in my opinion an adjudicator will take a dim view of, in the use of Marston's to attempt to collect this penalty pre registration


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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:43
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Hang on Pastmybest I'm still trying to to upload the complete story but I have ran out of imagine space Doh,,,

Having to use direct links now but they are in date order

https://s17.postimg.org/yz0naxbxb/13-11-201..._6th_letter.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/q3zt0fppr/20-11-201...from_Co_W_1.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/oc6u5k8xr/20-11-201...from_Co_W_1.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/mkdvap7lb/27-11-201..._7th_letter.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/piau4fpjj/TE3._Reve..._30-11-2017.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/mo7oqzv33/TE3._Reve...0-11-2017_1.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/fmeci11a7/TE9._Reve..._30-11-2017.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/s114ieasv/TE9._Reve...0-11-2017_1.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/cfjsyh1fj/01-12-201..._8th_letter.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/n2dm3y70v/01-12-201...th_letter_1.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/jvj2kf21b/01-12-201...th_letter_2.jpg

cont

https://s17.postimg.org/6rdi7uzqn/01-12-201...r_from_Co_W.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/wo76k40pr/01-12-201...from_Co_W_1.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/75eu73ovj/07-12-201..._9th_letter.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/ac9dqqor3/07-12-2017_TE5_B.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/g0fohn8j3/12-12-201...0_Th_letter.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/9zhzkl927/18-12-201...r_from_Co_W.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/3lswhdm6n/03-01-201...1_Th_letter.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/m1ddetibj/02-01-2018_No_R.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/6sng12bsf/02-01-2018_No_R_1.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/o5xqfxetb/02-01-2018_No_R_2.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/srtuoafrz/02-01-2018_No_R_3.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/me4rl1y1b/02-01-2018_No_R_4.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/ey5hz9xhb/02-01-2018_No_R_5.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/t4l8uj37j/02-01-2018_No_R_6.jpg


Thats the whole story...







--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:53
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Sorry to whinge but it's impossible to keep up with you using 'postimage'
It's a nightmare.

Seeing everything upfront, not links, not thumbnails, would help.

Tinypic, using IMG codes

or Flickr using BB codes.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:53) *
Sorry to whinge but it's impossible to keep up with you using 'postimage'
It's a nightmare.

Seeing everything upfront, not links, not thumbnails, would help.

Tinypic, using IMG codes

or Flickr using BB codes.


Hi Neil...long time no speak...

I did try just to post thumbs but ran out of space hence posting direct links. They are all in date order. I did read the FAQ and im sure I read that a lot of the old image posting sites are now closed and someone suggested postimage. Will have a look at Flickr using but please note I am an old fart these days lol


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:16
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I'm probably moaning to much but getting the story involves flitting backwards and forwards.
Don't worry, I'll try as is, when time.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:29
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:16) *
I'm probably moaning to much but getting the story involves flitting backwards and forwards.
Don't worry, I'll try as is, when time.


Ive opened a Flickr account and uploaded them... but now trying to find where the BB links are...God Im getting old

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc587FU

Please someone tel me that works


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
Go to the top of the page
 
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:56
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QUOTE (TINBASHER @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:29) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:16) *
I'm probably moaning to much but getting the story involves flitting backwards and forwards.
Don't worry, I'll try as is, when time.


Ive opened a Flickr account and uploaded them... but now trying to find where the BB links are...God Im getting old

Well I'd capitulated but if you insist -

Sharing is a curved arrow - bottom right ish.
Click that and it defaults straight to BB code, lighting it up. So just right click and copy that.



Our First letter 05-07-2017 by ian acobs, on Flickr


CoW 13-07-2016 page 1 by ian acobs, on Flickr


CoW 13-07-2016 page 2 by ian acobs, on Flickr

I've left out NtO.

09-10-2017 Charge Certificate 1 by ian acobs, on Flickr
Left out p2 not needed

Then this Marstons is irrelevant.
13-10-2017 Letter from Marston 1 by ian acobs, on Flickr

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 16:00


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TINBASHER
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 16:00
Post #18


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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:56) *
QUOTE (TINBASHER @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:29) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:16) *
I'm probably moaning to much but getting the story involves flitting backwards and forwards.
Don't worry, I'll try as is, when time.


Ive opened a Flickr account and uploaded them... but now trying to find where the BB links are...God Im getting old

Well I'd capitulated but if you insist -

Sharing is a curved arrow - bottom right ish.
Click that and it defaults straight to BB code, lighting it up. So just right click and copy that.



Our First letter 05-07-2017 by ian acobs, on Flickr


CoW 13-07-2016 page 1 by ian acobs, on Flickr


CoW 13-07-2016 page 2 by ian acobs, on Flickr

I've left out NtO.

09-10-2017 Charge Certificate 1 by ian acobs, on Flickr

Then this Marstons is irrelevant.
13-10-2017 Letter from Marston 1 by ian acobs, on Flickr

Aha Brill

I will now up load in date order and delete the forgoing so not to confuse... tune back to this Bat channel in about 3 hours.....


--------------------
When Stephen Hawking guest starred on the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Descent", he was taken on a guided tour of the set. Pausing in front of the warp core set piece, he remarked, "I'm working on that".

MORRIS MINOR 1960s = 70MPH NSL
ANY DAMN DECENT CAR TODAY = 80MPH NSL
Go to the top of the page
 
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 16:03
Post #19


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Member No.: 16,671



16-10-2017 Our 4th letter by ian acobs, on Flickr


18-10-2017 letter from CoW 1 by ian acobs, on Flickr

18-10-2017 letter from CoW 2 by ian acobs, on Flickr

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 16:06


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Jo Carn
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 16:05
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Like you, we too have had over 23 PCN from our friends at CoL. A few will be heard at Tribunal this week.
It appears to me that they are completely overloaded and may have well have handed out some of this work to numpties.
I have case summaries that refer to photographic evidence, maps and plans and none were included - and this is when they send it 10 days late!

My advice is to continue doing what you are doing - being thorough, methodical and reasonable.
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