PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Code 46 with hinged signs
wendyrjr
post Mon, 16 Nov 2020 - 22:55
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



At the back of the Wolves stadium is a dead end street (it ends in a private Molineux car park) which has double white lines along it, and between are unmarked spaces which have a sign post at each end (ie before the double white lines start) - most days the sign post has a small clearway sign, and the words NO PARKING ON MATCH DAYS. Wolves sometimes play during the week and when they are playing, the signs are opened to state NO STOPPING.
I parked there on Friday morning (along with a dozen other cars). When I came back to my car at the end of the day I had a Code 46 ticket and the signpost was opened to NO STOPPING. I accept I don't know whether the sign was open or closed when I parked. The match was in the evening and it was an under 21 match, not a Wolves match. I am struggling to find any by laws other than info about Residents permits for Match days, where it states that their parking is controlled between 6pm and 10 on weekdays and 12 and 10 on match days. I strongly suspect that the council changes the sign half way through the day (rather than first thing in the morning) and then slaps PCNs on all the cars that were already parked there. Is there any way I can find out when the sign was changed - eg Freedom of info etc.

Also I cant find out what double white lines mean along the edge of the road (like yellow ones, but they are white!)

This post has been edited by wendyrjr: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 - 22:58
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 38)
Advertisement
post Mon, 16 Nov 2020 - 22:55
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
DancingDad
post Wed, 18 Nov 2020 - 17:40
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



The restrictions shown there would seem to reflect the ones in the 2017 emergency TRO and still give that 1.5 hour before kick off window.

I haven't a problem if the relevant CEOs or workmen or match stewards start turning the signs before but I have a definite problem when a CEO gets carried away and starts serving PCNs before it is lawfully sanctioned.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 10:12
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Oh well
Forget the TRO being of help.
I now have a copy of the 2019 version and it's a proper TRO not an experimental.
The No Stopping restriction applies "at any time" on match days and is specifically said that the council may decide "at their absolute discretion"

The other question I had is how did OP get there but the restriction on entry is still timed at 1.5 hours before kick off.

Back to signs and lines!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wendyrjr
post Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 21:56
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



Wow - I have been searching fruitlessly for the TRO - your experience is definitely showing here. How can I get z copy of the current TRO please? How did I get in on match day? Same as every other day - we just drive up the road and if there are any spaces left, we park on the street - the 'fecking steel barriers' I have only ever seen closed on real Wolves days (and I was walking, not driving). Ive never seen the traffic wardens turn the sign, but I have previously seen them ticket a whole line of cars there in the early afternoon on a real Wolves match day - I would guess that was yet another day when they flipped the sign to make some more money!!!
I would like to challenge the PCN, but also feel that I should do a Freedom of Info request re when the signs are flipped and how many tickets are issued on match days v non match days. Also to start a corporate complaint against the unfairness of their "absolute discretion' when they flip the sign without warning - for example putting bollards along the street in the mornings, But any help with wording/direction would be really helpful. Thanks guys - your experience shows!

The 'planned restrictions' document that Mad Mick V found seems clear that the intention is !.5 hours before kick off (which I think you have found to be 19.30) so they shouldn't have been ticketing before 6pm (which ties in with the locals parking permits for match days).
Do you think I can also include in the challenge that the road signage is incorrect for a clearway?

From the council website, it appears that I can only get access to council photo if its a bus gate violation - do they always have to provide it? I am fairly sure that their photo will be the same as the last photo I posted, where the sign (which appears to be above my car) states No STOPPING

This post has been edited by wendyrjr: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 22:51
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 22:41
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



I've cleared some space in my inbox...pm me your email addy and I'll copy the TRO over.
If one of the regulars wants to host it somewhere so it can be linked here, ask.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wendyrjr
post Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 22:46
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



For clarity,

https://ibb.co/3NjNmbP This photo shows my car as the last car before the double yellows started (which lead to the cul de sac/car park). The metal post of the sign ( I suppose it is the end of their 'clearway' - there is a tiny clearway blue/red symbol at the top) is actually beyond the clearway and just on the double yellows. No road markings along the stretch of road between the

https://ibb.co/my63qkV This photo is from a different angle and shows the same sign post, which states NO STOPPING. I would guess that this will show on the council photo. Usually the sign states - NO STOPPING ON MATCH DAYS, with the tiny clearway symbol above the words (this can be seen in the street view version, which is at the beginning of this 'clearway')
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 22:53
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



TRO sent.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wendyrjr
post Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 23:35
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



Thanks - got it and read it. I'll try drafting my challenge tomorrow and would be grateful for any comments.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Fri, 20 Nov 2020 - 00:07
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Do post your draft and expect some debate, we haven't a clear answer yet except it all seems wrong...which isn't a valid challenge.

The signs are not Clearway signs, they are No Stopping.
Nor are they Red Route signs.
Nor can we find any "zone" signs at the entrance to the area that create a red route or clearway or anything really.
All of which raises doubts on the contravention cited, the signs in place simply do not show either of the options.

Based purely on the signs, it should have been an 01 or 02, basically parked in a restricted street when you shouldn't but should also have a yellow line...unless in a zone with zone entry signs.
The issue without either entry signs or lines is that a driver, even an diligent driver can rely on there being no lines to think it is safe to park, who looks at pretty signs on a pole when they don't expect parking restrictions?

Then, how does anyone know it is a match day? Where are the warning or information signs?
It is no good the council saying that the No Stopping signs are clear when they may be in the folded position when someone parks (lawfully) and then turned to the restriction half an hour later.... leaving the motorist with a PCN or even being removed.

There's probably more but I'll look in the morning.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 20 Nov 2020 - 19:44
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 22:41) *
I've cleared some space in my inbox...pm me your email addy and I'll copy the TRO over.
If one of the regulars wants to host it somewhere so it can be linked here, ask.

If you can email it me I'll post it up.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 20 Nov 2020 - 20:45
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



The Wolverhampton City Council (Molineux Stadium) Road Traffic Regulation Order 2019 https://bit.ly/36Vju1d


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wendyrjr
post Sat, 21 Nov 2020 - 21:48
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



Ok Here goes :
Appeal against Code 46 PCN (stopped where prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway):

1. The use of a Code 46 is incorrect: Molyneux Street is not a designated Red Route, nor is it correctly signed to be a Clearway, as it does not have the prescribed terminal signs.

2. Further, the sign stated ‘No stopping on Match Days” when I parked in the unmarked section of the carriageway. There was no signage that indicated that Friday 13 November 2020 was a Match day. We can only rely on the signage in place at the time of parking.

3. The hinged sign was changed at some time during the day from “no stopping on Match Days’ to ‘No Stopping”. It is unreasonable to then commence enforcement against cars which were already parked there.

4. The Molyneux Stadium TRO 2019 prohibits entry or travel along Molyneux st for a period 1.5 hours before kick off . The Council Planned Restrictions to Traffic Movements sheet confirms that access is to be restricted on that date from 1.5 hours prior to kick off)(Under 21s match, kick off 19.30) . While the ‘stopping’ is is at the absolute discretion of the council, it is unreasonable of the council to enforce without notice of the change. Further, the CEO’s enforced before lawfully sanctioned

5. Also as it was an under 21s match, which is not included in the main Wolves fixture list, it is even more unreasonable not to give notice of the change of parking restrictions


Any help would be welcome both for argument, style and grammar please

This post has been edited by wendyrjr: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 - 21:56
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Sun, 22 Nov 2020 - 07:50
Post #32


Member


Group: Closed
Posts: 9,710
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



I have never encountered an "absolute discretion" clause in a TRO and would argue that it is for exceptional circumstances not a bog standard under 21 game where there were no spectators because of the Covid restrictions.

If it were used exceptionally both the club and the CEO office should have been informed of the new time limits to be applied--were they?

If it is used all the time then the TRO becomes a nullity IMO.


Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wendyrjr
post Sun, 22 Nov 2020 - 13:17
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



I couldn't believe they could give themselves an absolute discretion for the no stopping part of the TRO - and that makes it doubly unfair (there must be a better legal word) when it is used to make a payday for the traffic department by changing signs and ticketing everybody who parked there 'lawfully'. I can see that they need to clear the streets before closing them down at 18.30, and they do have the right to remove cars (!!!), but all they need to do is add an extra warning to the lampposts or put bollards down the street so we are warned before we park in the morning before they have got out of bed!

The stewards were surprised when I spoke to them in the late afternoon when I went to collect my car, because it wasn't a real Wolves match, just an under 21's.

I am also sending in a corporate complaint about their abuse of power in respect of the signage and no warnings, and doing a FOI for the weeks when there have been Wolves matches to see how many code 46 were issued on the street.

Any clever words to add to the line of appeal please?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 22 Nov 2020 - 14:53
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (wendyrjr @ Sun, 22 Nov 2020 - 13:17) *
.........
Any clever words to add to the line of appeal please?

Normally they flow from me quite easily but this one needs a little more thought.
Give me tomorrow
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 22 Nov 2020 - 16:23
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



If the sign is legal and my reading of TSRGD and TSM chapter 3 part 13.3.2

13.3.2.  A time period may comprise the time of day, the day of the week and, where not
applicable throughout the year, the appropriate dates. The expressions “Match days”, “Event
days” and “Market days” may also be used (S18‑1‑5).

Neither TSRGD or TSM state yellow lines should be used The nearest i can find is schedule 7 part 4 item 12 but nothing links it to the upright sign

Re your part 4 of reps get them to explain why they did not use their discretion seeing as it is specifically written into the TROas there was no prohibition against traffic and no crowd allowed Surely as good a reason as there can be to exercise discretion



--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Mon, 23 Nov 2020 - 23:13
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Okay, I've got my head round this a little more and will draft something tomorrow.

I am reluctant to say that the signs were unopened when you parked as in post 1 you were not sure.
Never a good idea to state a fact that can be arguable unless certain, ie if you parked at 9am and their records show that the signs were opened at 8am, any adjudicator will automatically be thinking porky pies.
So what changed your mind?

Let me know please so I can word that bit accordingly.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wendyrjr
post Wed, 25 Nov 2020 - 10:27
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



Hi - thanks for your comments Dancing Dad - I agree I didn't look at the sign in the morning - and I agree with your comment about not asserting it. But I don't want to ask in the reps when was it changed - I think a FOI would be better for that. So Im being a little more vague!!!
What do you think about this attempt? any further comments would be good:
Appeal against Code 46 PCN (stopped where prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway):
A stopping prohibition cannot be indicated other than with prescribed markings and signs (Traffic Signs Regulations 2016). The signage on Molineux Street fails to comply with Schedule 7.
Thus a Code 46 PCN for stopping on this stretch of carriageway is not appropriate, and this PCN should be withdrawn

Further representations:
The hinged signs at each end of the unlined stretch of road stated ‘No Stopping on Match Days’. There was no signage that indicated that Friday 13 November was a Match Day.
Motorists can only rely on the signage in place at the time of parking.

The CEOs enforced before being lawfully sanctioned:
The Match on that date was in fact an Under 21s Match (kick off 1930), with no/limited spectators permitted under the lockdown rules.
Wolverhampton City Council Planned Restrictions to Traffic Movements sheet states that access is to be restricted on that date from 1.5 hours prior to kick off for this Under 21s Match (as per the 2019 TRO).
It is unreasonable to change the signs and then carry out enforcement on the new signage.
There was no indication when I parked that the hinged sign would be changed from “No Stopping on Match Days’ to ‘No stopping’ - there are electronic signs on the way into Wolverhampton which could have been used, or bollards could have been put along the short stretches of affected roads as warning of the planned restriction.
This is especially important as the Under 21s match was not included in the Wolves fixture list, and so there should have been some attempt to pre-warn motorists.
It is unreasonable to then commence enforcement against cars which had parked there lawfully in the morning.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 26 Nov 2020 - 00:42
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Try this mate....If it isn't putting words in your mouth that aren't true, remember what I said about that.

Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ????
I am challenging for a number of reasons.
Primarily because I do not believe that the restriction was clearly signed or that I parked in contravention of the signs in place at the time I parked.
I park in this area regularly and am aware of the match day restrictions, so I generally look out for them and cannot understand how I could have missed the signs had they been open to the No Stopping restriction.
I can only assume that they were not open when I parked and without any warning of this being a match day, believe that applying them after I parked is simply unfair and should not be enforced.
I am sure that your CEO notes will confirm whether or not my belief is correct in that the signs were not opened until after I had parked.
I am sure that you will exercise your discretion in this should this be the case.
Please enclose a copy of your CEO notes and the log which shows when the signs were changed should you decide to continue enforcement.

If you do intend to continue enforcement, I ask how is the reasonably diligent motorist expected to know that a match day or event is about to happen.
I am certain that there were no pre-warning or information signs regarding that day being a match day or that any sort of event was being held as I had a good look around once I found the PCN.
I also check the Wolves web pages incase I had missed anything, it took me quite a while to find that there was an England U21 match, significantly more effort then could be expected of reasonable diligence.

Finally, I am confused by the cited contravention. This alleges that I was stopped within a red route or clearway.
However there are no Red Route lines or clearway start or repeater signs within the restricted area.
Without these I simply do not understand how this contravention applies to the actual restriction shown by the signs.
Please explain, otherwise I have to assume that the contravention is incorrect and ask you to cancel on this part alone.

Many Thanks
Hugs and Kisses

I think the none provocative tone and slightly confused may be the right approach.... see what comes back and we will see where we go from there.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wendyrjr
post Thu, 26 Nov 2020 - 09:22
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Member No.: 110,613



Aw thanks ever so much - definitely a better tone! Just amending it slightly and it will go off to them at 11 am!!

I'll let you know how we get on!

Owe you a drink!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 15:11
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here