PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Trethowans & Oxford University Hospitals NHS, Claiming for costs
notmeatloaf
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 20:43
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Hi all,

As predicted I got the usual copy and paste court summons from the angelic Olivia Muscat at Trethowans. Would appreciate any feedback on my defence. Unfortunately because of technical ineptitude I don't have access to the Word document here but thanks for downloading the PDF or looking at the images smile.gif

PDF defence link




















Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 20:43
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Glacier2
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 21:02
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10,695
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 1,131



Where is your original thread?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 21:18
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



It was in the Flame Pit, it wasn't asking for advice, more wondering about conduct of Trethowans.

Last two images.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Glacier2
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 21:24
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10,695
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 1,131



How did they get your details if neither the hospital or solicitors are members of either ATA?

As regards the costs, these need to be in a counterclaim which you will have to pay the filing fee of £25 at least.

This post has been edited by Glacier2: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 21:52
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 22:06
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33,610
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 22:24) *
As regards the costs, these need to be in a counterclaim which you will have to pay the filing fee of £25 at least.

Why? You don’t counterclaim for costs, you ask for costs to be awarded if you’re successful.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 22:34
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 22:24) *
How did they get your details if neither the hospital or solicitors are members of either ATA?

As regards the costs, these need to be in a counterclaim which you will have to pay the filing fee of £25 at least.

They have a highly unsatisfactory situation where the Trust, as the landowner, notionally apply for the keeper details from the DVLA. However, Trethowans handle all contact - if you try to contact the Trust they refuse and direct you towards Trethowans.

Effectively Trethowans are acting as a PPC offering self ticketing, but ducking the trade association requirement the DVLA imposes.

SP thanks for your advice. I didn't realise you could ask for costs without making a counter claim. I will do that instead.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 22:34
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 22:44
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33,610
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 23:34) *
SP thanks for your advice. I didn't realise you could ask for costs without making a counter claim. I will do that instead.

Well unless I’m completely misunderstanding what you’re doing, costs are awarded to the winning party in a civil case, subject to the court’s discretion and CPR 44 & 45. You don’t counterclaim for costs.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 22:50
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 23:44) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 23:34) *
SP thanks for your advice. I didn't realise you could ask for costs without making a counter claim. I will do that instead.

Well unless I’m completely misunderstanding what you’re doing, costs are awarded to the winning party in a civil case, subject to the court’s discretion and CPR 44 & 45. You don’t counterclaim for costs.

I think I'm confusing myself as I'd done the invoice originally when they were doing their thirtieth "we'll take you to court unless you pay for real this time". Makes more sense to ask for costs under CPR than to claim the invoice. Thanks for the advice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 03:22
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



I suggest putting that document to one side for a few months until you need to provide the witness statement and evidence pack, which it looks more like

That's not a defence, which is a list of reasons why you don't owe a payment

In your case those are :

1 The Particulars of Claim are inadequate and incoherent
They fail to make clear whether the charges for the alleged contraventions are contractual, for a breach of contract or trespass
They fail to disclose a cause of action

2 Not the driver and the Trust has failed to follow the conditions of POFA to recover payment from you as the registered keeper
Notwithstanding that there are other omissions, you have the reasonable belief that the Trust failed the requirement to obtain the registered keeper's details from the DVLA on each and every occasion
Read it because it says what the Notice must contain and when it must be received
It has nothing to do with the signs

3 You deny the Trusts assertion that the terms and conditions of parking are prominently displayed
The signs are inadequate - location and legibility
You can refer to a trade association Code of Practice as an example of what's required

4 You deny the Trust's assertion that the driver entered into a contract
The Trust has alleged a contravention
A driver cannot possibly form a contract to perform an action that is forbidden

5 On at least X occasions, the driver did nothing wrong by parking in what the Defendant understands to be a staff car park
The driver was on NHS business and had every reason to believe he could use the car park

6 The charge is a penalty that is not disengaged by ParkingEye v Beavis that requires that there is a public interest in the charge and that the parking company to comply with its trade association Code of Practice
The Trust has failed to comply with 07-03 etc that you suggest has at least as must weight as a general Code
There cannot possibly be a public interest in charging an NHS driver for parking where he believed he was entitled

7 Even if the Trust had met POFA, the maximum sum that can be recovered from the registered keeper is the original £50 parking charge
It cannot recover extra debt collection charges

I would lose everything about your wife's condition and that you're an NHS driver who frequently visits the site

It screams to a court that you were in fact the driver on every occasion and very familiar with the parking charges
A counter-claim has no chance

I suggest that you remove the pictures and pdf
Apart from the scans being far too large, Trethowans will recognise this thread and use any admissions that they find
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 10:11
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33,610
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (Redivi @ Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 04:22) *
1 The Particulars of Claim are inadequate and incoherent
They fail to make clear whether the charges for the alleged contraventions are contractual, for a breach of contract or trespass
They fail to disclose a cause of action


Even if that is the case I don’t believe it’s a defence. If no cause of action is disclosed (and that’s ultimately a matter for the court) then an application to strike out the claim and for summary judgment should be made - which can’t be done in a claim form.

QUOTE
2 Not the driver and the Trust has failed to follow the conditions of POFA to recover payment from you as the registered keeper
Notwithstanding that there are other omissions, you have the reasonable belief that the Trust failed the requirement to obtain the registered keeper's details from the DVLA on each and every occasion
Read it because it says what the Notice must contain and when it must be received
It has nothing to do with the signs


WTF is this “reasonable belief” nonsense? In a defence you simply make the assertion - “the claimant did not”.

QUOTE
A driver cannot possibly form a contract to perform an action that is forbidden


It’s a point to include if the signs reasonably convey that meaning but a court is entitled to look at the meaning of the words and could find that it’s not forbidding at all (in the sense used here).

QUOTE
6 The charge is a penalty that is not disengaged by ParkingEye v Beavis that requires that there is a public interest in the charge and that the parking company to comply with its trade association Code of Practice


Where in the judgment is compliance with a code of practice made a pre-condition to the charge not being a penalty?




--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 11:51
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



I don't need to prove I wasn't the driver, I was working at a different site on that day and have smart card, swipe card etc logs to prove that.

I have already told them the truth - that a family member was driving on the day to give a lift to the appointment. I'm not going to throw then under the bus for doing us a favour so I'm happy for them to pursue via keeper liabibility. As I understand it they still have to prove a contract was formed with the driver so it doesn't really change things much.

From my point of view it isn't just that the signage is ambiguous, it's nonexistent. Speaking to staff this is the modus operandi for Trethowans - they're basically like IAS without the pretence of independence. They refuse all appeals knowing, correctly, that most people won't take it to court.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Glacier2
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 13:15
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10,695
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 1,131



Do they have a preferred local court or do they only issue against locals like DeVere?

I am at a loss to reconcile how the hospital can get keeper details, not being in a ATA but The University of Southampton cannot obtain RK details.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 15:15
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Its been issued for Oxford County Court which is my nearest. I don't know if they try other courts.

As for how they get keeper details, others on here are more knowledgeable than me. But landowners can get keeper details without being in a trade association. It probably isn't envisaged that the details are just passed to Trethowans, or I would guess more likely made by Trethowans on behalf of the Trust. The initial letter is from Trethowans.

However, the DVLA have hardly been meticulous about cracking down on questionable conduct so I suspect a calculated gamble has been made.

They are effectively relying on the fact that a firm of solicitors with a sideline as a PPC attracts less attention than a full on PPC.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Umkomaas
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 17:34
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,124
Joined: 8 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,842



It’s quite easy to find out who accessed RK data by emailing the DVLA and ask which organisations (when and for what reason) accessed the registered keeper's data from them between a range of dates which includes the date(s) of the parking incident(s). You need to provide the registered keeper's full name and address, the address on the V5C logbook and the Vehicle Registration Mark of the vehicle involved in the parking incident.

SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gov.uk

This service is free of charge.

Even though you email your request, the DVLA will respond via Royal Mail.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 19:58
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



I will email them but I'm not going to raise it. I already pointed out the incomplete PaP forms they were sending out and it was not well received. "Stick to nursing if you know what's good for you" would sum it up. Getting them blocked from DVLA RK lookups would probably see an unexpected career move into prisons or secure nursing homes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Glacier2
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 22:57
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10,695
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 1,131



I wouldn't take that from them. I would off to the SRA with a complaint.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 10:03
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



They complained to the Trust, not to me directly.

A senior manager in a different part of the hospital told me they did the same to her. Try to raise an issue and Trethowans put in a complaint against you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ViroBono
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 10:48
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 9 Jan 2011
Member No.: 43,323



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 11:03) *
They complained to the Trust, not to me directly.

A senior manager in a different part of the hospital told me they did the same to her. Try to raise an issue and Trethowans put in a complaint against you.


I'm not sure which is worse - a solicitor making a complaint in those circumstances, or an NHS Trust taking notice of them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 11:04
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



The issue is you can explain until you're blue in the face that incomplete PaP documents are a bigger issue than just one parking ticket - assuming this is a chain letter and so the same incomplete form was/is being sent to everyone. They sent the PaP forms with the very first letter, there is no initial letter like most PPCs.

However, trying to explain to someone who doesn't understand court procedures that you're not just disputing your, single parking ticket isn't easy. Hence why they can make your life difficult.

It is frustrating they just teach it as a standard debt. Not even any internal review, they just say they are following instructions from their client. Just dip into PoFA to get keeper liability. I might FoI and find out how many appeals are successful. I am guessing very few.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 11:05
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Albert Ross
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 11:29
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,640
Joined: 30 May 2013
Member No.: 62,328



For some reasons Solicitors have access to DVLA money laundering identity verification etc.
I don't think it is electronic access though.


--------------------
The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 12:46
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here