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Chiswick PCN in new residents zone
marklondon
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 11:25
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Hi Everyone,
Need a spot of advice for a parking ticket I received in Compton Crescent, London W4.
It's a 12r for not displaying a residents or visitor permit.
I looked for signs to say it was residents only but there were none in the street. There were also no road marking suggesting restricted parking. It turns out there are just two signs at the entrance to the street saying it's residents parking and giving the hours. Should there not be some kind of repeater signs in the street?
Secondly, I was in a van with a sign in the window saying I was unloading. From what I read on the Hounslow website that should give me 20 minutes in a residents zone, however the enforcement officer only observed for 3 minutes.

Thanks
Mark

Here are some pics of the street furniture





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post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 11:25
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stamfordman
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 11:47
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This is in Hounslow's Riverside controlled/restricted zone scheme which is recent. I think it controls between 10 am and 12 noon.

Post the PCN and the council's pics. It's just one dead end street so the entry signs are sufficient.

However if you were loading then this is a possible exemption - what exactly were you doing.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 11:58
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PS this case shows there is possibly an approach based on hounslow mixing up PPAs and CPZs. I don't think we have anything conclusive.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121889

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 12:02
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marklondon
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 12:15
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Other new Hounslow riverside residents areas have little blue or green repeater signs on all the lamposts. They too were dead end streets so I was aware of the new schemes but after looking for the repeaters here I came to the conclusion that this street wasn't covered yet.

The council site doesn't have any pictures.

I was unloading tools and equipment to a residential house. Why the resident didn't tell me it was a residents zone is beyond me but that's another issue!



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cp8759
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 16:27
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I would ask the council for photos in the first instance.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 17:32
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OP, pl do not refer to zones of any sort, we leave this probable c**k-up to the authority.

We do not know what restriction applied until you post the council's photos, but a good guess would be a 'permit parking area'

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/1/made


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/5/made

In the latter, item 5 Part 3 sign table, 'permit parking area' may be amended to 'resident's.', but it's never a 'zone', it always remains a permit parking area(PPA).

IMO the only contravention which can take place in an unmarked length of street is code 16 - parked in a permit parking place..', the required permit being a resident's of some sort.

The use of the grounds in your PCN is IMO incorrect and if technically correct would fail the test of clarity. The term duplicitous could be used.

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marklondon
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 17:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 16:27) *
I would ask the council for photos in the first instance.

not sure how to do that as I think you can only submit the appeal form once. Does there have to be photos in order to prove the offence?



We do not know what restriction applied until you post the council's photos, but a good guess would be a 'permit parking area'
Any photos the council could provide won't show my vehicle with a sign showing what the area is as the only signs are a good 100ft away as you enter the street.


Not sure how to proceed.

1. Unclear signage is one point as I actively looked for signs in the street, not realising they were at the entrance to the street.

2. A second point is that I was in a van and was unloading which I believed gave me 20 minutes grace and the warden only observed for 3 minutes.

3. No photos proving the offence

4. The ticket is wrong as it's not a zone but a Permit Parking Area. (although I don't entirely understand the difference!)

This post has been edited by marklondon: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 17:43
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cp8759
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 19:17
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You need to contact the council and ask for the photos.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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marklondon
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 19:45
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 19:17) *
You need to contact the council and ask for the photos.



I've sent an email to hounslow.challenges@serco.com.
It seems they have outsourced the department to Serco ohmy.gif
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hcandersen
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 19:50
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OP, have you actually read the links which are regulations?

We do not know what restriction applied until you post the council's photos, but a good guess would be a 'permit parking area'
Any photos the council could provide won't show my vehicle with a sign showing what the area is as the only signs are a good 100ft away as you enter the street.

Yes. We know this. These signs - let's presume they're the ones in the regs - mean that EVERY UNMARKED length of road beyond IS A PARKING PLACE subject to the restriction on the signs.

All that's required is those signs! No others are needed. No road markings and no further signs.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 19:52
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stamfordman
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 20:12
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This is a link to the order - all 180 pages of it:


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...rMLT1pJ_rdxiiO8


note:

EXPLANATORY NOTE
(This note is not part of the Order, but is intended to indicate its general purport)
This Order designates parking places in Chiswick Riverside area in the lengths of Burnaby Crescent, Burnaby Gardens, Compton Crescent, Deans Close, Fauconberg Road, Florence Gardens, Gordon Road, Grove Park Terrace, Hazledene Road, Nightingale Close, St Mary’s Grove, St Thomas’s Road, Sutton Court Road, Whitehall Gardens, Whitehall Park Road, Wolseley Gardens, Chiswick

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 20:24
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marklondon
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 21:14
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Yes I've looked at the links and as far I I can tell it says that just having a sign at the entrance to a street is all the warning they need to give. A sign that is placed at a 90 degree turn into a street where the driver is watching for pedestrians, cyclists, other cars as they make the turn into an unfamiliar narrow road with cars coming towards them. As they do all that they are supposed to carefully read and consider a parking restriction sign and it's hours of operation. Is it too much to ask that the council put up the occasional repeater sign? The £55 fines would soon pay for a few but then of course they wouldn't make so many £55 signs?!
I'm sure the signage is technically allowed but it is very unfair. I've never seen an unmarked street like this before.
In nearby areas the council have recently put up discreet repeater signs so why not here?

Anyway, I guess you're saying forget the poor signage excuse. I'll stick with the unloading one then as I'm sure you're supposed to get more than 3 minutes.

This post has been edited by marklondon: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 21:15
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hcandersen
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 21:20
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We've not seen the signs so couldn't advise one way or the other on whether they meet the legal test.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 21:21
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What did you do after you unloaded.
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marklondon
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 07:18
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Went shopping for materials.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 09:01
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If indeed you stopped there just to unload at the time of the PCN and then left then that is an exemption. You could get a statement from the householder.

The observation time was 3 mins from 10:25 so you would need to account for why no activity was seen.
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marklondon
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 09:24
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Ok, thanks. Basically it takes more than 3 minutes to carry stuff to a loft room and get back down when you're on you're own.
I thought the rule was 20 minutes if there were signs of unloading. I thought a note in the windscreen would count as that.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 10:38
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A sign that is placed at a 90 degree turn into a street where the driver is watching for pedestrians, cyclists, other cars as they make the turn into an unfamiliar narrow road with cars coming towards them. As they do all that they are supposed to carefully read and consider a parking restriction sign and it's hours of operation.


Very eloquent, but is this the reality on the ground??

Both corners into Compton are guarded by DYL and this is reflected in the order to the extent that the parking places do not start until 7m into the road.

IMO, it would therefore be inappropriate to place the PPA signs in advance of the termination of the DYL because:

1. Of the points you raise above, and
2. They must be sited as near as practicable to where the restriction commences.

But until we see exactly where these signs are placed, who knows?

My worry is that any council photos might be so close-up that they don't clearly show where they're placed.
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marklondon
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 12:36
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I'll try to go back and take pictures of the road entrance signs. I didn't see them on the day and I only saw the ticket that evening as it was well tucked in under the wiper so didn't take photos as I left the street

This post has been edited by marklondon: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 12:37
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marklondon
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 15:05
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Still no reply to my email request for photos.
If they don't provide any before the appeal time limit is the ticket still valid?
Not had chance to go back and take my own pictures of the road entrance signage.

This post has been edited by marklondon: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 15:06
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