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Two back to back fines
easytry16
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 17:54
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Hi All,

I received a Notice of the Proposed Disqualification on 01/05/2020. This is the first time I have received anything relating to this incident.

I have been passed this letter on from my previous residential address, which I left and been living in my current address for more than 2 years. I contacted court to check what my offence was, they informed me that I have 2 speeding offences (36 on 30 and 37 on 30) both at same location caught by a camera van on two alternate days, this location is approximately 0.2-0.3miles away from connecting a 50mph motorway slip, so most them tend to increase their speed at this location. These incidences happened last August.

Also, offence included not providing drivers information on 2 counts, I currently don't have any driving points on my licence. I wrote an email to police confirming that the location where this incidences occurred it would have been me driving the car at time of stated offences. I requested whether this can be settled without going to court.

Response received from police stated 'If I plead guilty to my speeding offences' then they're are happy to withdraw the offences related to not providing driver's information. But they have said I need to plead guilty directly to court now.

Note: I had changed the address on my license immediately but had totally forgot to change the address on my V5C until October last year and to my bad luck these offences happened before I changed my address on V5C.

My question is, how many points and fine will I get (self employed) if I send my guilty plea to court? also, is there a way to request to reduce the penalty to the court directly? What should be my next course of action?

Your advice and help would be much appreciated.

Thanks
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post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 17:54
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 18:05
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Each of those speeding offences would see 3 points and a band A fine (~50% of your relevant weekly earnings but discounted by 1/3 for a not guilty plea) plus nominal costs.

We wouldn't normally recommended pleading guilty to the speeding unless agreed in court but it sounds OK to do this if you have their agreement to drop the failing tp name charges.
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Jlc
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 18:21
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Just to be clear - you haven't been convicted yet? If so, it seems you've been fortunate that they have managed to contact you now. (As removing convictions is a right pain)

When s172 (failing to furnish) charges are involved it's not usually advisable to deal with these without attending court - if you plead guilty to the speeding offences before the s172's are confirmed dropped on the day then you could still 18 points here. (Instead of the 6 for 2 minor speeding offences).

Each offence would be 3 points and a fine around 1/3 of weekly earnings. Also costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fines (min £32).

You could ask them to consider fixed penalty equivalent sentencing - but if you had not updated your v5 then you might not see much sympathy:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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easytry16
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 18:33
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Thanks Baggieboy and Jlc for your valuable responses, yes I haven't been convicted yet but I have forwarded the S172 withdrawal email from police to court and court confirmed that they have checked with police and confirm that it will be withdrawn if I plead guilty to speeding offences.

Should I email court to confirm I plead guilty to speeding offences, is there a standard email template for this and also to request to reduce the penalty?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 18:37
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No there isn’t a standard template as we don’t normally recommend it as no such commitment is usually provided in advance.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 19 May 2020 - 18:38


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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NewJudge
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 18:56
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QUOTE (easytry16 @ Tue, 19 May 2020 - 18:54) *
I received a Notice of the Proposed Disqualification on 01/05/2020.

I don't quite understand. Who was this from and what exactly does it say?

Since you've contacted the court and they've given you details I assume they have already dealt with your matters and have written to you informing you that they are considering disqualifying you (presumably under the "totting up" rules). If so the matter is now outside the control of the police at this stage. You have been prosecuted and convicted and only a court can set that aside. The police do not come into it.

If you have been convicted you will need to perform a "statutory declaration" to have your convictions set aside. But before you have that explained to you we need to know exactly what has happened so far.
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Jlc
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 19:47
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I think it's more likely you've been convicted (in absence) too and are now dealing with the potential disqual. You'll need to find out sharpish as your actions are quite different, and potentially time-bound, depending...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 19 May 2020 - 19:47


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 23:28
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IMHO it would be improper (and unlawful) to issue such a notice unless the OP had already been convicted, due to the presumption of innocence provided for by the HRA/ECHR.
However, I would also echo the sentiment regarding the difficulty in providing meaningful advice based solely on the title of a document we have not seen.


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NewJudge
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 07:24
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Another thing that puzzles me is if the court convicted you of "Failing to Provide Driver's details" (x2) how did they have details of the original speeding offences? Please tell us who told you what and what the letter says.
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easytry16
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:10
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Sorry guys for not being very clear with this.

I received a letter from court on 1st of May delivered to my new address with the title 'Notice for proposed driving disqualification' and I have been given time up until 05/06/20 to reply by email with two options:

Option A: Plead Guilty and court can make decision in my absence
Option B: Plead Not Guilty (basically have more information to provide to court), also give dates when I am not available for hearing in next 2 months.

The letter also stated that if I don't respond by that date then I will be disqualified to drive from 05/06/20.

The offences mentioned in the above letter was 2x Fail to provide Driver's information. At this point, I wasn't even sure what my offences were because it did not mention speeding offences.

So, I called up police (101) and mentioned the above and asked what information they hold against my car registration number i.e. what offences have had happened? but police said they cannot see anything of concern against my car registration number and advised me to email court asking for information. (Seriously at this point I was think my car registration number might have been cloned).

Then, I wrote an email to court asking I am not sure what I am defending and if they can provide me with information then I would be able to complete and return the above letter within the timescale.

The response from court was 'The police issue Intended Prosecution Notices to the address held and if they do not receive a response to these , the matter is then brought to the courts and a Single Justice Procedure form is posted to you and a copy to the courts. This form was posted to you on the 24.01.20 requiring you to complete and return to us within 21 days. Failure to respond to this form can result in the magistrates considering disqualification and a Proposed Disqualification Notice is then issued. During this time we may receive an updated address from the DVLA driving licence and therefore will explain your receipt of this notice.

You are now required to complete and return this notice adding any changes to your personal information.

The Single Procedure Form gives details of the offence(s) and the reason why the police brought the matter to the courts', was also sent to me.

At this point, I decided to write to police asking if anything can be done without going to court and they came back saying 'We can confirm if you wish to plead guilty to the speeding offences, Police will request the fail to furnish driver identity offences are withdrawn, however you will need to make your plea’s to the court direct'.

I forwarded the above to court and their response was this 'In response to your email dated 14.05.2. I have had a response from the police and they have clarified your enquiry.
You will now need to submit a GUILTY PLEA to the offence of speeding so that this can be added to our files for the courts consideration. We await your confirmed plea'.

Court has asked me that I can make the guilty plea via email - Now how should I respond to court? should I also ask them to reduce my penalty and should I also mention about any mitigating circumstances?

I hope the above is clear, this is all I have for my case and would really appreciate help with this because I have never done these things in my life.

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Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:35
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QUOTE (easytry16 @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 10:10) *
Court has asked me that I can make the guilty plea via email - Now how should I respond to court?

If you are certain the s172 offences are dropped and you are pleading guilty to the speeding offences only that that seems ok.

QUOTE (easytry16 @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 10:10) *
should I also ask them to reduce my penalty and should I also mention about any mitigating circumstances?

It's highly unlikely you have any mitigating circumstances to reduce the the fine (it will be 3 points each).

However, you can ask them to consider fixed penalty equivalent sentencing as I posted above.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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easytry16
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:49
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JlC, only certain based on the above email communications, I hope they stick to what they said about withdrawing S172 offences, is there a chance that this email can be ignored by court?

I am thinking of replying like this:

I confirm that I Plead Guilty to the following speeding offences:
Offence dated xx/xx/xx at xxxx location, driving a motor vehicle registration xxxxx on restricted road, 36mph on 30mph - (similar wordings on the SJP)
Offence dated xx/xx/xx at xxxx location, driving a motor vehicle registration xxxxx on restricted road, 36mph on 30mph - (similar wordings on the SJP)

Could I please request court to consider fixed penalty equivalent sentencing, as I did not get the opportunity to respond to the notices from police due to change of my residential address.

Is the above ok?
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 10:44
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I wouldn't leave anything to 'hope'.

See if the court will confirm the s172 charges are dropped on the basis of this plea. (There's still a risk of those 18 points!)

In regards to your wording, I'd be explicit on the guidelines: (But remember you contributed to the failure)

I would request the court to consider the sentencing guidelines that say 'Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances'.

My change of address was an administrative issue unconnected with the offences themselves.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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easytry16
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:25
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Thanks JlC for your advice, fingers crossed I am hoping the court accepts my reasoning. I will keep you all updated on the outcome.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:53
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I think you need to make sure in any correspondence with the court, that you include the offer. To make sure the dots are easy to join up.

You could also say you are willing to plead guilty... on the understanding that...? What do regulars think?
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 13:30
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They won't accept a conditional plea I suspect.

As I noted above, the charges being progressed need to be confirmed. If the s172's have been 'dropped' then it's safe to plead guilty to the underlying charges.

Normal advice is to plead not guilty to everything and then attend court and offer to plead guilty to the speeding if the failing to furnish is dropped. Although, many courts do treat these offences as statutory alternatives - for which they are very much not.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 20:30
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QUOTE (easytry16 @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 10:10) *
The letter also stated that if I don't respond by that date then I will be disqualified to drive from 05/06/20.


Did it?


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Irksome
post Thu, 21 May 2020 - 07:54
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I can see this ending badly, the member of staff who has made this offer doesn't appear to be employed by the CPS or Police service, so I don't see that they have the authority to make the offer.


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PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.

You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already.
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 May 2020 - 08:41
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 21:30) *
QUOTE (easytry16 @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 10:10) *
The letter also stated that if I don't respond by that date then I will be disqualified to drive from 05/06/20.


Did it?

I think we should see a redacted copy of this letter.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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easytry16
post Thu, 21 May 2020 - 09:40
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Thu, 21 May 2020 - 08:54) *
I can see this ending badly, the member of staff who has made this offer doesn't appear to be employed by the CPS or Police service, so I don't see that they have the authority to make the offer.


Yes the email came from CPB.

This post has been edited by easytry16: Thu, 21 May 2020 - 09:41
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