Bus Lane PCN Colchester Options

[B789pilot]

Essex County Council Bus Lane PCN received.

Following sat nav and inadvertently turned off roundabout into bus lane. moderate traffic and confusing signage. Where I turned off the roundabout there are no markings at that spot. Video shows fairly well.

Contravention Video

There is another roundabout about 100m down that lane and I immediately returned in the opposite direction which is not a bus lane.

What are the odds of a successful appeal?













This post has been edited by B789pilot: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 17:32

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[Incandescent]

If there is no advance warning on the sign as you approach the roundabout, then the signage is very poor, as if the entrance sign is the only one, you are committed before you can even see it clearly.

Can you please give us a GSV link because I'm having difficulty finding it.

[stamfordman]

here. May have to chalk this one up to blindly following satnav.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8990311,0.8...3312!8i6656

There is a bus lane in the previous part of the main road and a big sign so can't see a defence there.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8992553,0.8...3312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8996433,0.8...3312!8i6656

But if coming around the roundabout it's less obvious.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8991412,0.8...3312!8i6656



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:49

[Incandescent]

So if that is a bus lane, why no wide white line delineating it ?

[stamfordman]

So if that is a bus lane, why no wide white line delineating it ?

Given there are housing and industrial areas to the left (and right) I don't think they've made a bad job of signing this one - clearly on the roundabout you need to go into or cross the 'lane' to turn left so it shouldn't be marked as a continuous stretch. Where they've put the first road legend is just past the left exit and the roundabout sign in advance is clear about through traffic (to me anyway).

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 19:07

[B789pilot]

As Incandecent says... coming around the roundabout, it is not obvious at all as there is no solid white line delineating the Bus Lane and there are so many signs on there anyway....

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8991412,0.8...3312!8i6656

We'd already come into Colchester from A12 J27 onto A133/Colne Bank Av when Sat Nav started having a hissy fit and wasn't updating properly. Went lett onto A134 to Essex Hall Roundabout but were getting lost so turned left onto Essex Hall Road to stop and try and get bearings. Turned around and went back onto Essex Hall Roundabout but accidentally turned left early onto N Station Road instead of A134. There are no signs indicating a Bus Lane when approaching the roundabout from Essex Hall Road.

https://goo.gl/maps/5xg1HsYdqVM2Z9T68

Immediately realised we were on a Bus Lane we turned back at the Albert Roundabout, back up N Station Road and then left onto A134.

Turning onto N Station Road from the Essex Hall Roundabout it is not obvious it is a Bus Lane as there are cars parked on the side of the road and also cars coming the opposite way as well as no solid white line delineating the bus lane until you are committed. I'm sure it is obvious if you live there or drive around there regularly but when. you're just visiting the area trying ti find an address in the city centre, then it's an easily made mistake... and a costly one.

Where they've put the first road legend is just past the left exit and the roundabout sign in advance is clear about through traffic (to me anyway).

Approaching the roundabout from Essex Hall Road there are no signs indicating the roundabout exits or the Bus Lane.

This post has been edited by B789pilot: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 20:00

[B789pilot]

Any experts out there with info on how I'd prepare an appeal? I'd like to base it on the lack of signage when entering the Essex Hall Road roundabout from Essex Hall Road where there is no signs before the roundabout and the only Bus Lane signs is on the road before N Station Road and after the turn onto N Station Road but committed.

[PASTMYBEST]

Is it a bus lane? If so it should be signed with the rectangular bus lane sign(959B and road marking solid white line (1049) ) or is it a Bus Gate? Ii so it should be signed with the roundel (953) as it is. But the legend Bus gate must be marked on the road

The signs or markings are not compliant either way

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 10:19

[DancingDad]

For an initial challenge I would keep it simplistic and to the facts, without the satnav bit, it is counterproductive.

I approached the roundabout with the exit in question from Essex Hall Road, intending to turn right to the A134.
Unfortunately I lost my bearings on which exit and found myself heading for the bus gate.
I didn't realise earlier due to lack of prior warning and that the left hand sign was missing.
This came without warning as there were no pre-warning signs previous to the roundabout and as a stranger to the area, I am reliant on clear signage and warnings.
Due to traffic, it would have been unsafe to take immediate avoiding action so had to enter the bus gate as the safest option.
I turned off of it at the earliest, safe opportunity and returned, I am sure that you can see my return should you check CCTV footage a few minutes later.
There was no intent, no desire or wish to take a short cut and indeed it was not the way I wanted to go.
Simply an error that I had no pre warning of and no chance to correct.

There is enough in something like that to tee it up for an appeal to adjudicators for inadequate signage, incorrect signage and the safety issue which is a firm exemption.... supported to an extent by the video footage....

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 15:00

[cp8759]

The duty under LATOR is to install and maintain the signs. There used to be a nearside sign, but it is clear that it has since gone missing and the council has failed to replace it. If the council's initial view was that two signs were required to give adequate guidance, the council should accept that the disappearance of one sign means the requisite level of adequacy is no longer met.

[DancingDad]

The duty under LATOR is to install and maintain the signs. There used to be a nearside sign, but it is clear that it has since gone missing and the council has failed to replace it. If the council's initial view was that two signs were required to give adequate guidance, the council should accept that the disappearance of one sign means the requisite level of adequacy is no longer met.

True, amended my draft to tee that up as well.

My opinion and obviously open to other views is that with this sort of case, better to pre-load any possible appeal to adjudicators rather then hammer home initially on points that could be subjective.
Even the missing sign could be, though a council initially made the judgement that two were needed, they can revisit and change their minds.
Having said that, off to check TSRGD to see if two signs are required, if so, dead cert (or as close as we can be) a winner.

[cp8759]

B789pilot if the council puts the sign back up in the next month or so, are you in a position to go and get a photo?

[B789pilot]

Thank you for the replies. I'm out of the country right now but back on Friday. I'll have to get my appeal in quickly as I'm approaching the 14 days limit to try and protect the 50% discounldt it fail.

I'll draft my appeal and post here for comment before I send it.

Once again, thanks for your assistance and insights.

[B789pilot]

Does anyone have a link to the relevant legislation please?

I've found the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 document but cannot see where the reference differentiates between Bus Lane and Bus Gate and which sign applies.

This post has been edited by B789pilot: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 09:21

[B789pilot]

Here is a draft of my appeal for review and suggestions...

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_...684344635734294

Its in a PDF format with images.

This post has been edited by B789pilot: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 13:26

[cp8759]

Thank you for the replies. I'm out of the country right now but back on Friday. I'll have to get my appeal in quickly as I'm approaching the 14 days limit to try and protect the 50% discounldt it fail.

I would forget about the discount, there's no chance the council will cancel. Realistically this will have to go to the tribunal.

Re-post the representation in text format on here so we can easily tidy it up.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 19:18

[B789pilot]

Here’s the text. I’ll try and add in the google map street views later:

I use to indicate inadequate signage the following references:

Turning onto the Essex Hall Roundabout from Essex Hall Road, there are no advance signs indicating any bus lane restrictions.



Once on the Essex Hall Roundabout there is no reference to the Bus Lane/Bus Gate approaching the A134 towards Ipswich:



After passing the A134 approaching the exit for Clarendon Way there is still no signage of the approaching Bus Lane/Bus Gate restriction but as can be seen in the picture below, the road markings indicating the nearside Bus Lane are non standard:



After passing the Clarendon Way exit there are “Turn Right” signs on the road which are confusing as there is no right turn on the roundabout and I did not need to turn right:



At this point moving over to the left hand lane where there is no solid line indicating a Bus Lane I was committed to N Station Road and the only signage relating to a Bus Lane/Bus Gate are the Diagram 953B (round) signs which are actually placed after the junction and are not the prescribed signs according to the Traffic Sign Manual (Regulatory Signs 2019) Section 9.3. which says Diagram 958 or 958B signs should be used (Square type):



This junction appears to be a Bus Gate rather than a Bus Lane as described in the Traffic Signs Manual section 9.7.3:

9.7.3. A bus gate is a short length of bus-only street. On a two-way road, access may be restricted to buses in one direction only, with all traffic permitted in the opposite direction, i.e. similar to a contraflow lane, but too short to be signed as such. In this case, that part of the carriageway reserved for buses should be separated from the opposing flow of traffic by a traffic island and not by a continuous line marking to diagram 1049A.

If this is the case, then the road marking should indicate Bus Gate rather than Bus Lane. The signs are type 959 which indicate Bus Gate rather than type 953 which indicate Bus Lane. Contradiction which shows inadequate signage as well as the lack of any signs when entering Essex Hall Roundabout from Essex Hall Road.

My appeal will be based on inadequate signage, incorrect signage and the safety issue.

My appeal is therefore:

I approached the roundabout with the exit in question from Essex Hall Road, intending to turn on to the A134.

Unfortunately I lost my bearings on which exit and found myself heading for the Bus Gate.

I didn't realise earlier due to lack of prior warning and that the left hand sign is missing.

This came without warning as there were no pre-warning signs previous to the roundabout and as a stranger to the area, I am reliant on clear signage and warnings.

Due to traffic, it would have been unsafe to take immediate avoiding action so had to enter the Bus Gate as the safest option.

I turned off the Bus Lane at the earliest, safe opportunity and returned, I am sure that you can see my return should you check CCTV footage a few minutes later.

There was no intent, no desire or wish to take a short cut and indeed it was not the way I wanted to go. Simply an error that I had no pre warning of and no chance to correct.

This post has been edited by B789pilot: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 06:14

[B789pilot]

Regarding the missing left hand (nearside) sign, I’m not sure that is the case. I’ll have to try and go back and have another look but if you look at the Google Street View, the nearside sign is very close in to the wall of the property on the left. The angle of the photographic evidence only shows another, already present, signpost/pole. No idea what that’s there for but I think the nearside Bus Gate sign is still there.



Why they would put the sign so far over on the other side of the pavement, who knows? However there is an option to have sign closer to the kerb as evidenced by the signpost/pole.

[cp8759]

Get some updated photos of the signs, we can't really recommend a strategy if we're flying blind.

[B789pilot]

Get some updated photos of the signs, we can't really recommend a strategy if we're flying blind.

As I'm not from the area, I'll try and find some time to go back and take some pictures of the signs (or lack of them). However, Whether that sign is missing or not, is the rest of the evidence about lack of or inadequate signage and the fact whether it is a Bus Gate or a Bus Lane relevant regarding entering the roundabout from Essex Hall Road?