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Is a PCN valid if the only "pay and display" signage is at the car park entrance?
rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 11:30
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We received a PCN on Saturday for failing to pay and display. This is a large public car park on a main road in Herefordshire.

Upon surveying this the wider car park, the only signage indicating any parking control is a small sign at the main entrance.

Surprisingly, at least to us, there is absolutely no signage whatsoever anywhere else inside the perimeter of the car park.

Would we have any scope for a common law appeal on the grounds that this car park displays insufficient signage?

Are there any other problems with the wording or presentation of this PCN which may render it unenforceable?





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post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 11:30
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 11:41
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That would depend on the adequacy of the signage, is there a T&C board by the P&D machine?


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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 11:45
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There was T&C signage located next to sole ticket machine.



This post has been edited by rp.: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:21
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stamfordman
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 11:47
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Any council pics on their site?

It's here but GSV doesn't go inside.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9134416,-2....6384!8i8192

Only £1 to park:

https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/directory_...n-wye_car_parks
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 12:14
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According to the core order this car park is free to use :-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...shire/HE293.pdf

I can't find any variation notice on the Council's site so it may be wise to ask the Council to produce the Order/Notice which gave rise to payment conditions.

Mick
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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 14:59
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 13:14) *
According to the core order this car park is free to use :-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...shire/HE293.pdf

I can't find any variation notice on the Council's site so it may be wise to ask the Council to produce the Order/Notice which gave rise to payment conditions.

Mick


Thanks for thinking of this.

I will request any Notice.

This post has been edited by rp.: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:20
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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 15:22
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 12:47) *
Any council pics on their site?


The machine and its signage is not visible from the vicinity of the car park's entrance.

The only signage was positioned next to the small ticket machine machine beneath a large tree

What is the common law position with respect to the level of signage required at a car park?

Can a PCN be valid and enforceable when the only signage was outside the entrance?

This post has been edited by rp.: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:20
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hcandersen
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 15:33
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OP, the first of the photos in your last post shows the entrance and exit with an absolutely clear sign prior to the entrance indicating that the car park is pay and display.

So exactly what more would you expect?

Was this the entrance which you used, if so how did you not see and understand the significance of the sign?
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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 15:34
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I just sent a formal request letter by email to the Council's parking office.

This post has been edited by rp.: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:21
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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 15:52
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 16:33) *
OP, the first of the photos in your last post shows the entrance and exit with an absolutely clear sign prior to the entrance indicating that the car park is pay and display.

So exactly what more would you expect?

Was this the entrance which you used, if so how did you not see and understand the significance of the sign?


I would expect prominent signs located visibly around the car park identifying the consequences of not paying as required by Vine v Waltham Forest and para 18.3 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice. Would that not be unreasonable? Or are council operated car parks held to completely different standards?

There is no signage visible from anywhere within the majority of the car park. The only external sign does not state the consequences of not paying. Can the PCN in fact be valid when there is only one sign upon entry positioned outside the perimiter of the car park?

This post has been edited by rp.: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:21
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stamfordman
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 16:11
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Are you saying you saw the P&D sign but ignored it because of lack of signage elsewhere?
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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 16:13
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The question that I am asking is whether a single summary sign at the entrance of a public car park is sufficient for a PCN to be valid?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 16:29
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would expect prominent signs located visibly around the car park identifying the consequences of not paying as required by Vine v Waltham Forest and para 18.3 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice. Would that not be unreasonable?


Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest was a case heard at the Court of Appeal of England and Wales in 2000 and set new case law with regard to the use of wheel clamps by establishing a legal precedent in relation to the concept of consent by expanding upon the decision in the case of Arthur & Another v Anker & Another [1996] 3 AER 783.


Now we know the measure of matters. This is a regulatory matter, not a contractual issue. Wrong tack completely - other than for the fact that the Ts and Cs must be clear in respect of which:

1. Clear entry sign, apparently ignored.

2. Chose to not look for/read/comply with the Ts and Cs by the P&D machine which sign also states that CEOs patrol and that 'parking contraventions will be dealt with by the issue of a penalty charge notice'.

You could of course continue your line up to and including adjudication and, barring procedural c**-ups on their part, result in you paying the full penalty.

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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 16:35
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Are local authorities subject to any rules or guidance on the quality and extent of parking signage that must be displayed in off-road public car parks?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 18:26
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QUOTE (rp. @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 17:35) *
Are local authorities subject to any rules or guidance on the quality and extent of parking signage that must be displayed in off-road public car parks?


yes they must convey the terms and they do, you cannot enter the car park without seeing them, and you cannot pay without seeing the consequences of not complying



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cp8759
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 18:55
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QUOTE (rp. @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 17:35) *
Are local authorities subject to any rules or guidance on the quality and extent of parking signage that must be displayed in off-road public car parks?

Yes and no. The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government has a power, under regulation 35B of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, to make regulations about the requirements for signage in car parks. However the Secretary of State has never got round to making any such regulations.

On the other hand, adjudicators tend to rule that there must be a Terms & Conditions board prominently visible, which spells out what the conditions of parking are, and there is a duty upon motorists to consult the car park T&C board before leaving the car park.

In post 3 you've provided a very clear picture of a notice board that outlines the conditions of parking, and there is also a sign at the entrance of the car park that puts you on notice that the car park is pay & display.

I don't see any basis for you to challenge this PCN.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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rp.
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 20:51
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@cp8759 - Thank you for giving me the detailed answer that I needed.
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DastardlyDick
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 23:01
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"What is the common law position with respect to the level of signage required at a car park?"

Common Law does not apply.
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 10:24
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 00:01) *
"What is the common law position with respect to the level of signage required at a car park?"

Common Law does not apply.

What would you consider the law followed by adjudicators to be?


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