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slough bus lane no response to July appael in 5 months, then they issue a charge Certificate ultimatum
sledge1uk
post Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 20:11
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I received a PCN warning notice on 16 June 2019 dated 11 June for a for 25 May alleged contravention but in the interval of receiving the warning notice 2 more PCN for 11 June and 16 June were issued for the same bus lane contravention.

I appealed by e mail on the 18 July and paid one where I was told payment would be returned if my appeal was successfully.

My appeal got e mail acknowledgement From: ParkingAppeals ParkingAppeals@slough.gov.uk Sent: 18 July 2019 13:20
To: Paul Hammer and heard nothing back until 2 Dec 2019 where I received a Charge Notice for 90 pounds. It states the registered keeper is responsible and not to pass it to me the driver where the vehicle is registered to my daughter. This seems to ne unfair.

I note from Velji post that he got off and the basis of that letter stating that "Nothing on the PCN conveys the information required by regulation 8(5)(n)(i) or (ii), it follows that the penalty charge notice does not comply with the requirements of the regulations. In such circumstances, the only penalty that may be demanded is nil". and will also use this argument. However I was the driver and the registered keeper is my daughter where this charge notice States DO NOT PA SS THIS ONTO THE DRIVER which maybe a reason they are not responding to my recent e mail asking why they did not respond to my appeal.

I queried in my appeal the low frequency of buses in the small section of bus lane before Sainsbury approach and if this bus lane was warranted. I also note the bus lane is 24/7 which is bizarre to say the least and that needs explanation.

My unanswered 18 July appeal follows.

Sent: 18 July 2019 13:20
To: parkingappeals@slough.gov.uk <parkingappeals@slough.gov.uk
Subject: Wellimngton St PCN SB40274269,/SB40325450/SB40344648 vehicle GL53NSU

I am in receipt of 3 recent notification all in the same place related to a very short bus lane between the roundabout traffic light and Sainsbury entrance at Wellington St. I was the driver at the time.

The 1st PCN was a warning SB40274269 issued 11 June for 25 May alleged contravention
The 2nd PCN SB40325450 issued 28 June for 11 June alleged contravention
The 3rd PCN SB40344648 issued 05 July for 16 June alleged contravention

I went to your office early July and asked where Wellington street was and she did not know. I paid SB40325450 in good faith and stated I was going to appeal it and was advised I would be refunded even though this is not stated on the PCN and moreover there was a further PCN which I had no knowledge of.

I then googled wellington St and realised it was the Sainsbury approach and went there and observed at the roundabout there is a 2 lane traffic light and the Sainsburys roundabout exit and no mention of a bus lane ahead. I normally use the LHS lane for ease of access to Sainsburys and have done this for years without issue and have looked at Historic Google Earth Maps to determine when the bus lane sign just after the traffic light was installed but its inconclusive.

I appeal the 2nd and 3rd PCN on the following Grounds.

1). Late PCN Warning Notification
I assume you have recently installed a camera hence giving out PCN SB40274269 as an awareness warning notice issued 11 June 2019 for a 25 May bus lane entry. Had I received this PCN warning I would have made myself familiar with the topography and the 11 June SB40325450 which occurred before receiving the warning would not have occurred. I was not made aware of your Warning notice until my daughter returned from holiday and forwarded it to me on 18 June 2019 after the 3rd PCN. 16 June 2019. I appreciate that you are not responsible for people leave dates but would like your understanding that you issued the warning Notice for awareness and I was genuinely unaware and you have my assurance I will not get another PCN as am now fully aware and approve my appeal.

2). Bus Lane Use
a). I went back to Sainsbury's early July after returning from Overseers now fully aware of your warning. I studied the traffic for 30 minutes and only one bus entered the 2 lane traffic light Sainsbury approach as most busses from Wellington St go straight through the centre of the roundabout in lane 3 and bypass this short bus lane and enter it after the Sainsburys entrance. My understanding for a bus lane purpose is a lane restricted to buses on certain days and times, and generally used to speed up public transport that would be otherwise held up by traffic congestion. This does not appear to be the case here and consider this 35 m short length of bus lane between the traffic light and Sainsbury entrance is reviewed

b).From the attached Google Earth Map this short 35m bus lane creates a scissoring effect of vehicles on the inside traffic lane wanting to enter Sainsburys having to veer out and re-enter which is a potential hazard as seen in the photograph of both PCNSB40325450 and PCNSB40344648. The black cars in both need to cut back into the inside lane to enter Sainsburys and be diligent of vehicles in the bus lane and if the White car wished to enter Sainsburys he needs to brake to cross lanes due to me being in the bus lane. Appreciate I will no longer be in this bus lane but observed 3 cars using it in my 30 minute observation.

From a). and b). above I consider due to minimal bus traffic this 35 m of bus lane is reviewed by the Council to form a safe entry lane for those wishing to enter Sainsbury's to avoid veering out to the outer lane and cross back in again.

I have not paid The 3rd PCN SB40344648 issued 05 July for 16 June alleged contravention pending your appeal and understand if my appeal is not upheld I still qualify for the 50% discount of 30 pound

Regards



Paul

This post has been edited by sledge1uk: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 10:19
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post Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 20:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 18:43
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 17:36) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 16:20) *
For whatever reason the adjudicator has decided to here an appeal, They cannot though revoke the CC themselves they can instruct the council to, but what if they don't? Stuck in the system it goes through without a human looking at it. and an OfR arrives on your doorstep. There is no ground for you to make the SD if you have lost an appeal so by default it will progress.

So IMO you need get something in writing from the council confirming the CC has been cancelled

Indeed. We now don't know if an adjudicator has allowed an appeal to be be heard for £90 or £60, when
following process would have been a guaranteed £60.

QUOTE (sledge1uk @ Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 16:00) *
but the appellant states that the notice of rejection was not received and the council are content for the appeal to proceed.

Does this mean that Slough will now send you a copy of the NoR promptly?



Absolutely. Any appeal is against the NoR so you must see it


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sledge1uk
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 19:45
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I am going to e mail this to Slough Council Tomorrow so any ideas /additions

To ParkingAppeals@slough.gov.uk

Dear sir

I have not received any acknowledgement or reply to my 5 Dec 2019 e mail below questioning that I did not receive the appeal rejection and went to the council on 11 December to enquire but you do not allow tel contact or visits so please if you don't respond how does one communicate.

In the absence of Slough Council response and not having received the appeal rejection, I phoned the TPT and they have given me a case number SB40344648 to appeal and today the sent me this

16/06/2019 15:56 Being in a bus lane £60.00
Adjudicator's reasons for registering:
The appeal appears to be out of time, but the appellant states that the notice of rejection was not received and the council are content for the appeal to proceed.


I understand that the adjudicator cannot revoke the CC but have to instruct the council to revoke it. In the absence of an effective means of communication with Slough Council and it gets stuck in your system can you please assure me if and when you will cancel the Charge Certificate to prevent an Order for recovery being issued.

I assume if the Adjudicator does not support my appeal I will be permitted to pay the 60 pound charge not 90 pound. Please confirm

regards paul


From: Paul <*****paul@hotmail.com>
Sent: 05 December 2019 10:45
To: ParkingAppeals <ParkingAppeals@slough.gov.uk>;
Subject: Re: Thank you for your on line Representation, please accept this email as an acknowledgement.

I have not received a response from my appeal and its over 56 days ago. I am out of the UK and have just been advised that a Charge Certificate was issued by you on 2 December 2019 so please explain.

Regards

Paul ******
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 20:04
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edit.

No. Not that.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 20:10


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sledge1uk
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 21:25
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Thanks put the brake on it but that's how I understand the facts from my perspective. Appears winning is more about tactics and how to word things so any help is appreciatred.
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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 09:44
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And your understanding is wrong.

You chose to ignore normal procedure and approached TPT instead.
They having agreed to consider your late appeal you now only communicate through them.

When they agreed the above they have failed to tell you what amount is at stake or if they
have asked Slough to re-send the NoR to you.
Ask them.

If you had followed PMB's advice these questions wouldn't have arisen.
Nobody has mentioned "tactics" and none have been suggested.

It seems to me you are overthinking this and just making things harder for yourself.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sledge1uk
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 17:09
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Hi Neil B new to all this so being unfamiliar its not straight forward to me

I read and followed Hi Ho silvers Example where he lodged an appeal with TPT I day before the appeal rejection deadline (post 33) where he won using arguments 1 and 2 which I have also used.

My circumstances are different in that a CC had been issued where the 2 Dec CC time was running out (16 Dec) and spoke to TPT on 11 Dec how best to proceed and they advised to respond pronto and they would consider an appeal which they have done. They never stated or advised wait for the order for recovery

I did not fully understand the procedure stages of PMB post 13 in this thread and not to contact TPT but wait for the order of recovery where my grounds would be based on not being notified of the rejection. If I went down this route and made the statutory declaration that I had not received an appeal response where the CC order is then revoked and the Council are then required to refer this to the adjudicator (assume TPT) we are back to where I currently am which is in the hands of the adjudicator.


I assume the order of recovery route I would still have to lodge an appeal with TPT which would have been to use the same argument as items 1&2 of Hi Ho silvers appeal which I have currently used with TPT so unclear how the result and outcome would be any different? This route may have involved taking time off to attend court and a far lengthy procedure and stress my daughter out with paperwork dropping through the letterbox

I spoke to TPT today on them submitting the NoR and they said it will appear on my online appeal "Awaiting Evidence" where Slough have 14 days to submit.

I am unclear what I do with the NoR ( if they ever sent it) as my appeal is based on a non Compliant PCN which has NIL to pay and hope I have the same adjudicator as Hi Ho silver
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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 17:30
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You don't need to apologise to me; we understand people don't know the process.
But it strike me that you need to stop making your own assumptions and jumping the gun before
asking us.

Example -
QUOTE (sledge1uk @ Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 17:09) *
This route may have involved taking time off to attend court and a far lengthy procedure and stress my daughter out with paperwork dropping through the letterbox

No, it would have involved ticking a box on a form and the ensuant procedure to reset the matter (to a more certain £60)
would have been automatic.

Please understand that we don't have time to explain the same issues to people, case after case after case. We rely on people
trusting us and we won't say anything we aren't 100% sure of without qualifying it.

So now you just have to wait to see what the rejection said. Have you familiarised yourself with how to view council
evidence when it's uploaded?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sledge1uk
post Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 11:40
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Thanks for that your time and patience.

appreciate the point about explaining each case and that why I read Verji post and Hi Ho silver post for similar PCN location/situations/ and mirrored their successful appeals.

I log on each day to TPT site and assume the yellow box will flag up when something arrives and a tick appears in authority evidence circle.

I will be delighted to receive notification that the CC is cancelled

If their appeal NoR now appears as stated previously I am unclear as to its relevance as my appeal is now based on PCN non Compliance. I would be interested in seeing if it was e mailed the address to whom it was sent as have trawled looking for it to no avail.

So if this NoR does appear Ill post here before doing anything as not sure of the impact if they do now sent the NoR from the various post comments

Post 21
Does this mean that Slough will now send you a copy of the NoR promptly

Post 25
"When they agreed the above they have failed to tell you what amount is at stake or if they
have asked Slough to re-send the NoR to yo
u.


Post 27
" So now you just have to wait to see what the rejection said.

[attachment=68683:IMG_1923.JPG]
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Neil B
post Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 12:27
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QUOTE (sledge1uk @ Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 11:40) *
I log on each day to TPT site and assume the yellow box will flag up when something arrives and a tick appears in authority evidence circle.

Good, seems you're on top of it. I've never used it myself so would have been of no help there.

The relevance of the rejection is that is what you are appealing against.
You made your points in representations and they've rejected them.
So you will need to show the adjudicator why that rejection is wrong.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sledge1uk
post Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 13:06
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My appeal was based on the time I received a PCN late warning notice notification for awareness I did t twice again in the interim of the warning being issued so I was still unaware. I subsequently changed the reasoning in my TPT appeal similar to what hi Ho Silver did in Nov 2019 for the same section of Bus lane and he won on this later appeal


I am not sure what the adjudicator will do with the LoR reasoning as my subsequent appeal is based on PCN being Non compliant having more clout

Here is Hi Ho Silver opening post for ease of reference


Notice of Rejection arrived recently (via email only and after a month and a half).
My challenge was on the grounds of being forced into the bus lane as I came off the roundabout by aggressive tailgating driver right behind me.

I spotted velji's success with his Slough Bus lane PCN back in July/August. His grounds for representation were that the PCN was noncompliant with regulations because information required by law was not on the PCN so the PCN could not be enforced.
Slough Bus Lane PCNs are defective

I checked my Slough Bus Lane PCN and heyho! it omits the same information that is required to be on the PCN under the Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005.

I will now have to go to appeal if I choose to fight on. Can I use this defence as the basis of my appeal? (I used a different argument for the challenge which they of course twisted around in their rejection).

It looks straightforward to me if the PCN is defective. Just wanting to know if it's ok to change tack here (I didn't know about it at the time of my challenge).

Any advice on this is appreciated. Thank you.


This post has been edited by sledge1uk: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 13:07
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Neil B
post Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 13:25
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You don't need to persuade me; I know you're right.

But you can't really submit anything to TPT until you know what Slough said in response to you.

For example, they may have ignored the point altogether.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sledge1uk
post Mon, 23 Dec 2019 - 14:06
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Sorry to labour on as somebody posted in response to the purpose of the bus lane is not relevant. So attached more for info

I e mailed Councillor Anderson on the 24 hr bus lane limited use purpose but never got an acknowledgment or Response Just got a Slough email response to him but cannot determine if he asked Q or just forwarded it on.

Rather a nonsensical generic response highlighted in bold italics to this particular short bus lane which has hardly any buses in the first place let alone 24 hour operation and should be dedicated to Sainsburys customers so as not to cause a hazardous scissor effect

From: _Parking <Parking@slough.gov.uk>
Sent: 23 December 2019 13:20
To: Anderson Rob <Rob.Anderson@slough.gov.uk>
Cc: 'paul@hotmail.com' <paul@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Wellington Rd bus lane prior Sainsburies entrance PCN SB40325450 vehicl GL53NSU Ref;303670

Dear Councillor Anderson

Thank you for your email send.

I can confirm the enforceable bus lanes were introduced to the Borough a few years ago. The locations and timings of these were chosen according to the frequency of buses passing through these sites and prior to these being implemented a lengthy consultation process took place. However bus lane enforcement has been introduced to the Borough under an experimental order to allow the public the opportunity to experience the scheme and allows a 6 month consultation period where representations will be considered by the Council. I can confirm the comments regarding the timing and location of the bus lane have been logged as a formal representation, the 6 month period ends January 2020. If you have any further comments regarding this scheme between now and then please do write in and I will also ensure these are also logged. After this time frame elapsed all correspondence will be analysed and a decision will be made as to whether any amendments need to be made.

As you are already aware Councillors are not permitted to influence the out come of an appeal against a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) and all correspondence received must be responded to in line with the Transport Act 2000 and therefore the response to SB40344648 will be sent independently to this email.

SB40274269 was issued as a Warning only.
SB40325450 was paid in full and therefore the case was closed and no further action was taking in regard to this matter. Once payment is made the right to appeal is lost.
SB40344648 is at Charge Certificate stage and this correspondence has been scanned to the case and a response will be sent independently.
.




Kind regards
Amanda Botley
Parking Services - Planning and Transport
Slough Borough Council
Tel: 01753 475111



and jwrote to the that t
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sledge1uk
post Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 05:21
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Thanks for all your support guys so HNY as just got this from TPT

The authority has decided not to contest your appeal. This means that you have won your appeal and the case is closed.

Can I have more information on why the authority has made this decision?
Yes, you can view the reasons why the authority is not contesting this appeal in your online case file:



The reason given is not defined but will pursue this as if the PCN is not valid due to missing info it maybe worth going for a refund for the 2nd PCN I paid where was told by the counter clerk that the 30 pound would be refunded if I won this one (the third PCN) the first being a warning.

This post has been edited by sledge1uk: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 05:22
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